What’s your beef with the boobs and botox?

I hate keeping things from you. We’ve come such a long way, and you’ve taken such a keen interest in my life, from when my womb was just a barren wasteland, to when my vagina ate my Mirena, and even during the order and delivery of my picked-out-of-a-catalogue boobs. Even when we’ve disagreed on key issues like cyclists and bathing, we’ve stayed friends. (Ok, besides Mail Order Bride Zhsuana, who, although she pretends to hate me, secretly harbors lesbian fantasies about me). Through all of this, we’ve always been honest with each other. I hope after this revelation, our relationship will continue….

I had Botox. And I didn’t tell you. And although I feel completely terrible about keeping this shocking secret from you, I have to say that I look absolutely fucking gorgeous!

SIDE NOTE: My biggest tip to anyone over 30 – GO GET BOTOX DONE! NOW!! Don’t wait until you are almost 40. If you don’t mind injecting a few thousand bucks worth of poison directly into your forehead, Botox is without doubt the best thing you can do for those pesky wrinkles. Do it before you get the wrinkles. Some naysayers will tell you might die from it, but just remember this, if you do die YOU WILL BE A FABULOUS LOOKING CORPSE!

Ok, I am obviously taking the piss (except for that part about doing it earlier rather than later), but I do want to have a serious discussion about this.

I have been reluctant to tell you about the Botox thing because I knew some of you would disagree and I wanted to have a proper conversation about it, not just throw it out there.

I know some people are very anti things like Botox and fake boobs etc, and while I can understand why they would choose not to do it themselves, what I can’t understand is why they get so upset when other people do it. My friend Orange has tried to explain it to me, but either I wasn’t listening properly (quite possible!) or I didn’t quite get what she was trying to say. She does tend to use big words and fancy sentences.

Explain to me, in simple English, why you are so anti someone else getting fake boobs or having Botox done? If it is a choice they are making out of their own free will, why would it affect YOU in any way? If one could reasonably assume that I am a fairly intelligent woman who, knowing the risks involved, is doing this out of my own free will, then why is it a problem? It’s like you having your hair permed – I might think “OMG, I would NEVER do that”, but I wouldn’t dare say you shouldn’t. If you want to look like a poodle, then so be it! Good luck to you, I hope it makes you feel good. What ever floats your boat, baby!

And I am not being facetious, I actually seriously want to know. I wish we were doing this over a glass of wine so that you can say something and then I can respond and we can go back and forth like that, but in the absence of wine and geographical proximity, let’s see if you can get it into my thick botoxed head.

Ok, I’m going to get my wine, you go first!

BTW - Sister Mel does a Lordy version of the plastic surgery debate her blog.  Yes, fake boobs run in the family!

(PS Best Botox Doctor Ever – my friend and MBA study partner, the very handsome Dr Alek Nikolic. )

Comments

[serina]

Darling Tertia, I think you are fabulous! Not only are you brave enough to do what you want with your own body, you are brave enough to ask us what we think and I find that very special, actually. Plastic surgery, botox, cosmetic improvements etc exist to make the people who want them and can afford them happy, so what is the big deal? I see no problem in looking as good as you can for as long as you can.
Having said that, I'm not a fan of tattoos on women, although I love them on men! I just think they look great for a while and then they get blurry and old looking. Go on, now tell me you have Popeye tattoed across your shoulders....THAT would shock my socks off, (but not the botox!)

[poki]

I would normally not say anything negative to anyone who has had any kind of "work" to stave off ageing. Your body, your choice, do what you like. That is how I try to think.

Deep down though, it makes me a little bit sad about the sheer amount of resources devoted to it and that we cannot accept ageing with grace and love our wrinkles and saggy baggy bits.

That said, if it makes you feel good and it isn't illegal or hurting someone else, why not?

[mijk]

I do think it is a shame for society that we forgot how people look. How a normal body looks and is made to look. A friend of mine who is a teacher told me that she had a boy in her class who never realized that women had ahair under their arms. Thats why al this changing your body bothers me. Wrinkles grey hair hanging boobs. is just normal. Thats how people look. And they are all different.. That and the facty that all those stuff is so expensive that I think it creates another gap into social classes..

[Aadila]

Congrats!i have no problems with botox,been thinking about getting it done on my 25year old self for a while now,just dont have the guts.I am a wuss when it comes to doing things to my own body,so cutting and implants-wouldnt even think of it.I agree-why does it matter to someone else if you have made an informed decision for Yourself.good on you!i think there are far too many women who dont pay enough attention to themselves,or think their lives need to be put on hold because they have children.I personally respect someone who looks after his or herself.IF U feel good/look good/feel happier,i think ur family husband/kids all benefit from your positive state of mind.however,i also think a woman needs to address all of her issues before taking the cosmetic surgery plunge,or it could become a futile obsession where no matter how much her body or face is Adjusted,it will never be enough.IN that instance,i believe it would affect the people who matter (her family)... Ok,im not going to drone on and on,think u can guage my stance on this issue.

[anon]

I think you are great Tertia, but plastic surgery makes me sad. There is nothing wrong with age. We as a society need to start respecting age again, and that will not happen if people are constantly chasing youth. I understand the impulse; part of me would LOVE to have a breast reduction and lift, and maybe some lipo, but I will not send that message to my daughters (and son for that matter). I have grown to love my imperfect body. But get back to me when my hair gets gray, lol.

[Aurelia]

Interesting question, I think that I get a bit nervous not so much about temporary things like Botox which wears off, but about surgery which is a riskier thing. My nervousness is because I know so many people who have had bad outcomes after aneasthesia, etc.

Here in Canada, we had two different cases where women died in surgery while getting facelifts and boob jobs. One was getting liposuction as well. Now it's only two out of thousands and thousands of procedures done everyday in this country, but still, it freaks me out on behalf of others. And really, it's not medically necessary like heart surgery.

I also personally know one of the lawyers involved in the breast implant case and the stories he tells me about the leaks and lumps and surgery redos etc. make me wonder about whether it's even safe now that they have changed the types of implants.

You see, everyone says they know the risks, but generally speaking, they don't. We are all just consumers and patients, not Doctors and we depend on them to tell the truth. Sometimes in their zeal to make money, I think Docs gloss over the risks a bit.

Really, the only people we can depend on to tell the truth are our friends and family, and some of us may feel like we are good enough friends that we should give you assvice. We worry about you, we want to protect you, is that so terrible of us?

I want to get laser eye surgery and maybe do some Botox myself, and I am nervous as hell and keep researching legal cases where things have gone wrong. I may just stick with glasses and contacts because I know that it's difficult to know the real risks.

We bitch because we care, and if we didn't care, we'd click away and say nothing.

[v]

in one way I think that everyone can do what he/she wants.
in another way I makes me feel bad, because I feel already enough pressure to look good. if "everybody" does look even better because of plastic surgery, I feel more ugly.
I am a normal looking woman, 35 years old, not too slim, bit of hanging boobs, starting wrikles etc. everything normal. ;-)
unfortunately I am not too self-confident about my body and about how I look. but I think I would be afraid of surgery. and, mabye even more important, I just do not have enough money for botox and new boobs. so I can not say: I don't like my boobs/my body/my wrinkles, I will get "repaired". so: the ones with money have the possibilities to look gorgeous, the rest is just normal. but "normal" is not good enough nowadays, as it seems. that makes me sad and a bit jealous .

[Kristin]

I honestly don't have a problem with either fake boobs or botox. My only advice is don't do so much botox that your face is frozen in place and keep the boobs to a comfortable size.

[blackbird]

Congrats! I'll bet you look great. I don't have a problem with the botox or the boobs. Enjoy them!

[Tertia]

Ok, let me respond to a few comments that have come through. (very bad for productivity, this debating stuff!)

A few thoughts so far:

- Why is dying your hair to hide the grey ok, but not botox? Don't we all conceal / disguise / amend / modify / upgrade a little? Where does the line lie?
- I welcome you and encourage you to love and accept your saggy / wrinkly bits as much as you want to. I promise I don't look at you and think "damn, that woman should upgrade her bits". What I do to me shouldn't make you accept your bits any more or any less, not if you truly are happy with your bits. If that makes sense.
- As for wrinkly / saggy etc looking normal and that is how normal is supposed to look - again, fine. For you. I am not 'normal' on so many other levels, that 'normal' doesn't worry me.
- As for changing the way I look - I choose not to wear make up 90% of the time. You might or might not wear make up. It really doesn't matter to me what you do. I know I would look better with make up, I choose not to wear it.
- As for respecting old age, I respect old people, I respect the way you age, I just choose to age my own way. Each to their own. Why does having breast implants mean you disrespect age?
- Another thing you must understand is that not everyone who has plastic surgery is unhappy with themselves. Some people, like me, are happy with what they have, they just choose to upgrade it a little. Wanting to improve does not mean you are unhappy. And believe me, I am not doing any of this because I think it will "make me happy". That implies I am unhappy, I certainly am not.

The way I see it, is that I am exercising my own free will to do what I want to do, to myself.

You can disagree with the concept, but surely you should respect my choice to do it.

[kirstyphysio]

OK - girlfriend, big fishbowl of white wine (Thelema, Sauvignon Blanc, 1999, if you must know)in right hand - and I'm going to throw it over your head!!! You Farkin Bitch!! How can you get botox before me???? Throughout the whole fake boobs fiasco I supported you and said it was ok blah, blah - but that I wanted botox!!! And now you've jumped the gun!!!Oh well - I can comfort myself in the fact that I am younger than you!!!!!!! Ha Ha! Beat that one!!
Seriously though - when I can afford it, I am having it done too!!! My 4 yr old commented that my wrinkle cream has worked, because he can see little lines around my eyes! I didn't bother to explain that the farkin cream is meant to prevent them, not give them!!!
Now - asshole, stop debating and post some before and after pics!! And if I'm impressed enough, I might have a word with the husbank and get my large ass down to that farkin good lookin doc of yours.xxx
Pics now - please!

[Andrea]

Definitely don't have a problem with botox in theory, my problem is that based on the people I know who have had it, it has not worked so well. Now I am sure you were very throough in your research and picked a great doctor, I am sure those doctors who can really inject it artfully are out there.
However, I know one guy who boasted about getting 45 or so injections, and literally there was no difference. I have another friend, who did get a difference, but it was a frozen, glassy, downright startling difference.
I am not sure what makes us look old. I have never done anything and regularly pass for 10 years younger. However, I don't necessarily think it is wrinkes that make us look old. Rather, it may be our overall carriage, skin tone, etc. This is not meant to be preaching about looking good from the inside: I actually think highlights may work better than botox.

[Pictou]

My objection is what we're teaching our daughters. Very simply, I want my daughter to know that her mind and spirit are the primary things to be developed. In the long run you will age regardless of the modifications you make.

Are you where you are because of your looks or because of your education and personality?

I don't care what adults do with their body. That doesn't mean I won't make snarky comments about you.

[Tertia]

So, what am I teaching my daughter?

I am teaching my daughter that she doesn't have to conform, she doesn't have to be 'normal'. That she is empowered to take charge of her own life. That if she isn't happy with something, she can change it. That just because others choose to accept, it doesn't mean she has to. That what matters is how SHE feels, and not how other people say she should feel. That nothing is ever 'just because'. She can choose to dye her hair, or be grey. She can choose to dress up, or down. She can shave her legs, or not. And if she understands the risks, she can nip, tuck or lift to her hearts content. Because it is her body, and her life.

[Tertia]

Oh and PS Serina - I have two tattoos :-)

[Tricia]

More power to you if you do it is what I think. It's not for me at this point of my life but I can't say that I'd rule it out forever.

I really think that at times when people voice their displeasure, it really has more to do with their own self image than with the person who had botox or boobs. I remember when my 45 year old sister saw an old high school friend that obviously had some "work," my sister was outraged. OUTRAGED! And when I look at it from my sister's perspective, she looks fantastic and she looks her age....her old friend looks fantastic but she looks 15 years younger.

[hajen]

I'll start by saying I don't criticize the individual women I know who have had plastic surgery or Botox done. It makes me a little sad, but - their choice. (I understand the impulse, believe me - my breasts went from firm and perky to fallen and squishy in my first pregnancy and there's no way to reverse that without surgery. It took me a few years to accept the change in my body and I still sometimes wish I could hoik 'em back up to where they were.)

My anti- feelings overall, though, stem from the unrealistic expectations of women and aging in our society - which in the past decade has only gotten worse with photoshopped images in magazines and advertisements. It is so much pressure already to feel we must look good in order to get by in life - cover your grey, do your hair, do your face, do your nails, stay trim, wear the right clothes. Yes, many women think this stuff is fun and feminine, but it's also a lot of work to maintain. And it does a number on your self-image and quite simply, your *time* - time you could spend doing other things rather than fixing your face or worrying about your extra 10 pounds or hating your cellulite.

It is worse when the expectation is to "fix" things that we can't do anything about short of drastic intervention - breasts can't be exercised into firmness; stretch marks can't be creamed away; wrinkles can't be moisturized away. Now we're into the procedures that have real risks - Botox, surgery (I won't even get into the costs and the class differences, but they're there).

The women that make the individual choice to "enhance" themselves are not making that choice in a vacuum. If there were not the societal expectation that we all should have high, firm, not-too-big and not-too-small breasts, women would not decide that they need to "fix" their breasts to feel better about their bodies. If we were not constantly presented with images of women (older than us, even) with fresh, smooth skin, women would not feel they look appalling and old when they look in the mirror and see wrinkles. If we saw natural bodies aging normally all around us, and no one making nasty remarks about how "she's let herself go" or "she looks so old and tired" we would not feel the pressure to fight against time to keep ourselves "presentable".

If every woman stopped wearing makeup how different would the world look? We have an adjusted expectation of how a woman's face should look based on the enhancements makeup provides - and we don't take the artifice into account when judging ourselves and others. It's the same with plastic surgery. The more women that "fix" themselves to this societal standard, the more people think this is normal, to have perky boobs and no wrinkles at 50. And the more the rest of us will be criticized for not maintaining that standard.

*You* can say you will not judge anyone for having saggy boobs and forehead wrinkles but you are one person - lots of other people will be happy to jump in and judge. And you can say "oh it doesn't matter what other people think" but we all know that's not true. It matters to be a part of society, to not stick out - it matters in your career and it matters in your everyday life. It matters when you're a woman because you're already having to walk that line of being not too young and not too old, not too sexy and not too frumpy, not too masculine and not too feminine, in order to be taken seriously.

"Oh, it's my choice" and "Oh, it's her choice" and "it's empowering to make your own choices", well, that works on a very individual, superficial level. But these choices are made with the influence of everything around us. Maintaining, falling into line, with this high and expensive standard of femininity affects women everywhere. It's one drop, but when all the drops go the same way, it's a rainstorm. And that is why I feel anti-.

Sorry for the long comment! Certainly these things are much better to discuss in person, over a bottle of wine. =)

[Shannon]

Well, the only thing I would add is that when many women 'trade-up' it creates a new normal which redefines the au-naturel women as last year's models.

This perpetuates the cycle.

And the value judgment implicit in the phrase 'trade-up'. Are you really prettier without wrinkles when you are 40? Is it really prettier to be blonde when you are a brunette? I agree, that on an individual level there is no big sin in pumping breasts up or down, smoothing out your face or reshaping nose, peeling off your skin, binding up your feet, piercings, tattoeing etc. They are forms of self expression in a wider community.

BUT when they are widespread they define that community including the others in it which is why people become angry. Making your choice makes the choice harder NOT to for all the other women and younger women.

Its not a train-wreck to change yourself but the ghost of you, unchanged, is always there to question from her wrinkled corner ;)

[Alex]

I suppose it's not all about us loving our own bits, and that's the point. You can afford boob jobs and botox, and have no moral issue with it, so good for you. I can't, or have an objection to it, so I won't do it. Still no problem there yet.

But now you've gone and raised the bar. You look great, perky and wrinkle free, and I don't. And I can't achieve the same without selling off all my furniture and or compromising some principals. So what can I do? Just because I can't or won't have surgery / botox doesn't mean that I am happy with all my bits as they are. Chances are that I am not. And playing fair (gym, make-up) won't fix everything, so there are things I can't do anything about, and so I resent that you can and have.
And this is because we are woman, and we are competative about our looks, and well, it's kinda like you've gone an cheated.

Dying hair / perming hair isn't the same, because it's cheap and eveybody does it.

[Poltzie]

I am totally for plastic surgery (and once I'm done with children I am getting full body lipo and I'll probably have to do something with my boobs because they are already starting to look like rocks in socks - so hot!) but I can sometimes see the other side. That is, if someone gets plastic surgery then we all have to. It holds everyone else to a higher standard. It goes against the whole "your beautiful on the inside and that's all that matters" crap! Or maybe that we are teaching our children that people have to look perfect and that is just not realistic (or actually it is now that plastic surgery si around, but you know what I mean).
Also, because plastic surgery is expensive does that mean that only the rich can be beautiful?
Ok, not sure where any of these thoughts have come from, my son didn't sleep last night...

[Andrea]

First of all, I have to ask, why are you asking your readers for approval? Is it a) that you rightly recognize that this is a hot topic and one that will generate a stimulating conversation or b) that you really need to convince all of us that it's OK? Because if it is the later, you have to remember how this all went down on the boob job topic and that lots of folks have different optionions and that many of them -- even if you disagree -- are valid.
As someone who is not opposed to -- but is somewhat leery of -- cosmetic surgery and injections like botox, I am the first to admit that my opinions are a bit arbitrary. I do highlight my hair -- at a pretty expensive boutique mind you. I buy nice clothes. I work out and before my baby took all my time, I spent a fair amount on yoga classes. I get pedicures. So, I am not all about being au naturel.
But if you want to have an honest debate about cosmetic surgery, I think it is intellectually dishonest to put it in the same category as hair dye. Come on! One is an invasive procedure that is painful, carries risks, and is very expensive and has to be considered altering your body in the way superficial enhancements like hair dye and nail polish are not. I think anyone who puts them in the same category really should not have cosmetic surgery because they do not approach it with the gravity it deserves.
I guess I wish all women were like me. Wanting to age gracefully, but not willing to go under the knife, which as other readers noted, really does impose a higher standard on all of us, and raises more classist issues that can give further advantages to the wealthy/priveleged in the work place, etc. However, I realize that like me, we all have our arbitrary cut off lines. Some would do botox but not surgery. Some would have an eye job but not a full face life. Maybe I will do botox one day. A lot of my friends rave about it. But like I said in an earlier comment, I never think those friends look great.
Which brings me to another point, which is purely aesthetic. Personally I think (most) youngish women look better if they maintain their hair color rather than letting it go grey when they are still in their 30s or 402 (not a criticism here, I said personally). And personally, I appreciate in shape bodies and fashionable clothes. But once you get into botox and cosmetic surgery, I am skeptical of the results. As an earlier commenter noted, at a certain point, I don't think that cosmetic procedures make you look younger, only like an older person who is trying to look younger. And I don't think they often make you look prettier.
Here in the U.S., a c-list actress, Kathy Griffiths (sp?) went very public a few years back about all her cosmetic procedures, but to me she didn't look any better. Just like her old self who had had work done. I think she has come back recently and said the same thing herself. So I think we all have to be careful when considering how to look our best, whether these expensive procedures really will help. I think one reason they work so well on actresses is that these are the people who are generally very good looking to start with.

[dana]

If you have a new car, it runs beatifully with just gas and oil. With time, you need to take care of it: touch ups, more maintenance... Same goes for the body:it carries your soul for so long that I think it is our obligation to maintain it as good as possible. Age will catch up eventually but what is the rush?
I had my boobs done a few years ago, I have highlights every 2 months and I have been using outregeously expensive creams for more than 15 years (therefore, no wrinkles for now!).I also eat healthy and exercise (and work full time, which helps to keep an active mind)
I think, in the end,unfortunately, it is a question of money... If they give you a Ferrari, can you maintain it? If you can't, can you be happy with letting your car go until it has no resale value?

Good for you girl!
Now where are the pictures??

[Meg]

I don't like hearing that my lovely friend-in-the-computer feels so crappy about her appearance that she is willing to spend piles of money, undergo pain, + risk nasty side effects to look better.

However, it's your body, so do what gives you pleasure.

[Lisa]

Hmm I live in Los Angeles where Botox is more the norm than the aberration. I just turned 30 last month and I am pretty sure I won't be getting Botox, but then again most people think I'm in my mid 20s (sorry I know this is probably going to come off as annoying) so I can't say how I'll feel when I do get wrinkles.

I can tell you that on a philosophical level, I really don't care what other people do with their bodies. Friends have gotten Botox and I haven't held it against them. And honestly, my b**bs aren't what they used to be, so I can't completely rule out a b**b job in the future, but at this point I don't think I will.

Do I look down upon people who get Botox? No. Does it make me a little sad that our society makes women feel like aging is unattractive? Yes. So I guess I'm saying I don't disrespect you for doing it one bit, but part of me does wish plastic surgery was never invented. Just being completely honest here.

[Henny]

Hi Tertia,
I'm here via Kristin's Blogg. and I hope I can give you my opinion.
first place, I have nothing against body/face/hair or whatever improvement, I wish I had the money to do it. but today in www.dailymail.co.uk is a photograph of a very (once) beautyful actress, called Lesley Ash, she had botox treatment on her lips, if you have time, have a look and you see why I am not keen on the Botox, an other famous (?) person, is Cliff richard, He has to have the injections now every 3 months, if he wants to keep looking youngish !!.
I have to explane to you, I'm 71 and a bit, have a few wrinkels, but I don't mind that very much, I am really about 5 kg. overweight what I do mind !!, and have my hair with blond streaks what looks better than gray,so you see,whatever age, everybody likes to looks her/his best !!
anyway Tertia, I like your Blog,
hope to visit again soon.
Henny !!

[Orange]

One problem with cosmetic surgery and Botox and, hell, even makeup is that they reconfigure what's seen as "normal" for women. The more women get fake boobs or Botox, the more society expects all women to look more like that. So a woman who was considered "gorgeous for 50 (or 40)" 30 years ago may be considered "eww, what an old hag; does she know how bad she looks?" now.

There's also the issue of woman as decorative object. We're human! We were not put on this earth to be pretty things for men to admire.

The pressure to comply with society's dictates is incredibly strong. What reward does a woman get for aging naturally? For skipping makeup? For never wearing high heels? For dressing comfortably? For not wasting time styling her hair (when most men simply wash and comb their hair, that's all)? ZERO. How much crap does a woman get for going against society's expectations for woman as decorative object? Plenty. "You could be really pretty if you permed your hair," I was once told by an older woman. Fuck off! (My hair is naturally smooth and flat. Volume is an impossibility.) "Man, those sandals are ugly," my sister opines. "Older women really need to wear makeup, you know." "You need a better bra so you don't look so saggy."

What on earth does any of that have to do with my personality, professional skills, worth as a parent, value as a friend? Nothing. The only purpose of all that crap is to toe the patriarchy's line and be a goddamned piece of decoration.

The problem is not with my body, my hair, my face, my clothes—the problem lies in the people who expect women to waste time and money to be more like a Barbie doll.

[Melissia]

I certainly don't have a problem with a plastic surgery, but think that have everyone should be aware of the risks. I had a tummy tuck several years ago with a post op infection, so I know of which I speak. Because of that the results are less than optimal and as a result will eventually need to be redone. Of course, insurance will not cover the redo, so the approximate $10,000 cost will be mine. I also had a breast reduction done at the same time, going from a 34 DD to a 34 B. It was the best thing I have ever done. Of course living in Texas my doctor wanted me to have implants, saying that my results would be better if I had even a small implant to keep the breasts looking "16 forever". He kept up even when I was being rolled into the OR! I was tempted but the big detractor for me was the knowledge that implants do come with upkeep and that they do need to be replaced. My doc told me that his recommendation is about every ten years. I have known several ladies with implants and none of them have made it that long before they have had to have at least one or both replaced due to rupture, leakage or encapsulation. For me this is too much trouble. I am attaching a link as well. Be warned there are pictures. http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/breastimplants/breast_implants_photos.html Just my opinion.

[D]

Wow some way long comments - I'll keep it short (probably already been said).

Do as you wish. If it makes you happy then good for you. In my views the concerns are with kids and young adults. Kids look up to parents and the TV... for instance if a child who has the same nose (or whatever part) that the mother or father has sees that parent going to get it "fixed" it is possible they will see their nose as unattractive and needing to be "fixed"... I know here in the US it seems no one is happy with the body they were given and that is projected on young people who don't really understand.

D

[D]

** forgot one thing - it also gives guys the idea that every chick should look a certain way. The changes the standard of attractive. You can see this by looking into history and how the "attractive standards" have changed over time.

And about the kids - is not such a problem with kids who have open parents who can talk openly about stuff.

K I'm done
D

[Tertia]

Wait, this is for my darling friend Orange, who I love and adore and who I would most like to debate with over a glass of wine (and after this I am going to bed, so hold that thought!)

But what if some women CHOOSE to look like Barbie? Why does that matter to you? If you are perfectly happy with the way you look, then it shouldn't matter to you the way I look? Why must everyone be kept to the same denominator? Fuck what 'society' expects or thinks. If you don't want to, don't. Why should me doing it change the way you feel about you?

If you choose to study further, to sharpen your brain, wont it make me look stupid? Should that stop you?

The part I don't agree with is where people imply(did you say it this time? Or last time? I've had wine already) that I do this because I am some disempowered victim, a slave to what men want. That is insulting. That implies that I don't have a mind of my own, a will of my own. I think wearing make up, tight clothes and high heels is FAR more submissive and compliant to men's will than boobs that are kept covered or botox that doesn't show. I personally don't like the way women walk around in uncomfortable clothes and caked on make up. Gods truth, they make me look like a homeless rag in comparison, but I don't care. That is their choice. I look at these women who walk around the mall on a Sunday, dressed up to the nines and I think "are they mad!", I would never. But you know what, I don't judge them for that. If it makes them happy, then good for them. It is not my place, or your place, or anyone's place to say to someone you may not look like Barbie, or Godzilla or Goddamn whatever you want to look like. If you are happy being Barbie, and if your choice doesn't directly harm anyone else, then good for you.

And now I have to go beat my children over the head with a blunt object because they are STILL not asleep. Naughty little assholes.

[doesn't bother me]

So not a big deal to me. I am not inclined to get it, at least not at this point. I'm older than you but through some miracle, and NOT due to any sort of truly healthy living, I don't seem to require it yet. Have learned through years of infertility treamtents and some other trials and tribulations that uttering the word NEVER is the surest sign that I will, in fact, end up doing something. But. I'm puzzled. I could SWEAR that you mentioned this in passing several weeks ago. Didn't you? Or am I just imagining things. Again. !

Glad it makes you happy.

[Liz]

That is because people have opinions about everything and anything. Seriously what does it matter to other people?? It is your body and your money.
And anybody who says they like their wrinkles, small boobs and fat are liars! I bet they stare themselves in the mirror and look at them and wish they will be gone.
You know what else Botox do? My cousin did it, her migraine is gone.

[Jenn]

OK i'm going to chime in here. I think you can do whatever the hell you want to do with your body. It's your body. There are definitely things I would do if I had the cash or a husband who isn't so, so, so anti-plastic surgery (I know, it's my body -- but I respect his opinion).

Honestly -- I just don't like the way Botox looks. A woman over 40 is supposed to have "character." I think the vast majority of women in holywood over 40 look just weird -- they don't look old -- they kind of look lik Bratz dolls -- their faces look alien to me because that's just not what a woman their age looks like. Do you find it's changed your face -- or just smoothed lines?

[Taryn]

I just graduated from a women's college filled with feminists, so I could probably come up with some argument about how plastic surgery came about due to the oppression of women by men, and how beauty is a social construct and we should be accepting of natural looks. But I won't say that, because I know others who have had plastic surgery, and they at least went about it for the right reasons (for themselves, and not others). I've even thought about getting a breast reduction myself. But I agree with some of the previous comments that if there weren't so much societal pressure to be young and beautiful and conform to "beauty" standards, perhaps women wouldn't think that they needed plastic surgery to feel better about themselves. The real reason that plastic surgery bothers me is that it sends a message to young girls that they need to be "perfect," and I think they should grow up knowing that however they they look, they are beautiful. Everyone should be able to feel comfortable in their own skin.

[Sister Mel]

You guys should know my sister by now. This is not deep and meaningful stuff, just a bit of botox to make herself look good & feel great. I think you think she is deeper than she is, I mean this in the nicest way. Some of you girls are way too serious about stuff and so extreme. Life has many shades of grey.

[morgan faulkner]

Oh boy.
I once had an intriguing, startling book which subtly contrasted little bits of text and drawings from Victorian surgical books (such as drawings of the instruments) and lines from the medical establishment written when breast augmentation began getting more popular, face-lifts began growing less 'shameful' and secret, even commentary from these learned gods on stretchmarks and vaginal 'improvements' following childbirth. Not at all the brutal sort of approoach this may sound like, it was horrifyingly subtle in presentation.
I think of these statements made by these cosmetic surgeons, which included frequent use of the terms, "un-feminine", "malformed", "abnormal" when I hear today's guys (and virtually all of them are men) on TV in consults with their patients, so frequently saying "...and we'll do this, to make your brow/jaw/cheeks/naso-labial folds/breasts look THE WAY THEY SHOULD."

F*ck them. And the yachts they floated in on.

I could have had a much more busy modelling 'career' with a nose job. Couldn't care less or be bothered. It was only something to do to keep busy at the time, anyway. I knew I had a lot more going on than my long legs and big eyes, baby, and nobody is ever going to make me feel they matter that much. They helped me run well in track, get better tables, more superficial boyfriends. Since then, I've gotten chubby....and a lot more confident.

And yes, of course we look around us and sublimnally at the very least think, "Huh...I might look that..tired, sun-weathered, saggy..if I hadn't" fill in the blank.

All this said, I personally don't snark much on other women, whom I see as being subjected to unrealistic, even pathological societal pressures. And after all, what you're altering is just meat. It's not your soul. Is it? Now that I'm a mother, I doubt even more that I'd risk general anaesthesia for a perkier frontline.
I'll just keep up the hubby's interest with a sensuous nature, my fasciinating repartee and increasing devotion to yoga.

Do want you want, honey. I think your repartee is fabulous.

[Kimberly]

The only parts of your life that we see is what you blog about, and I see you blog about money being tight, your accounts being low, etc. How all Marko wants is a car, but no no no ...can't afford it! So then when I see posts about boob jobs and botox, it startles me a bit because of the expenses involved. And that's the only thing that makes me raise my eyebrows a bit - the money. (Kind of like my relatives who moan about money, but are constantly getting new jewelry.)

While I'll never rule out plastic surgery for myself down the line I don't like what Botox does to a person's face, especially their facial expressions.

[Amy]

I lurk here occasionally, but this time you asked a question I have an answer to!

It makes me sad that this society tries to pretend people don't age and die. I see grace, beauty, and wisdom in wrinkles and gray hair. I hope my daughter will too; I hope she doesn't ever think the natural state of her healthy body is not good enough.

I dislike vanity. I am uncomfortable when people do expensive and possibly dangerous things to their bodies in hopes that it will fool people into thinking they look different than they are supposed to. I am frustrated by the amount of money, time, research, testing, etc. that is done to develop things like Botox for cosmetic purposes when those same professionals could be using their resources to develop something that contributes to people's health instead.

But when when it comes down to it, it's your body; do whatever you want.

[Anny]

One thing I don't get is the statement about not doing any of this because you are "unhappy" with yourself/bits/etc. If people were "happy" with their natural boobs,wrinkles,grey hair,fat,body hair than we would not have plastic surgery, botox, cream, hair dye, lipo, waxing/laser and so on and so on. Of course my grey hair makes me unhappy(only slightly though)so I dye it! Unhappy can mean many different things to different people but if you looked in the mirror and were happy with what you saw than what reason would you have to change anything?

[Melissa]

I could never have fake boobs or botox, but ONLY because I am an absolute baby and too terrified! I am envious of lovely boobs and wrinkle-free brows. So you know, if it makes you feel good, and I bet it does! then go for it!! :-)

[Chris]

At 30? Thought Botox was evil and ridiculous. Now, at 38? Am begging my friends to throw a Botox party and I promise to be first in line! Tell us more about the Botox experience, please.

[ruth]

oh for god's sake. what is the difference between wearing sunblock and moisturiser, and botox? its all intended to do the same thing - stave off the signs of aging! and, most of the wrinkles we end up with are the result of overexposure to the sun, free radicals (and i don't mean in a political sense), and unhealthy lifestyles.

even mail order bride probably washes her face in camels urine once her hair shirt comes off at night, and i bet she keeps that chastity belt well oiled, and the skin that it continually rubs against. not to mention the saucy underwear she reserves for her husband to rip off during their hot christian sex sessions.

do what you want - you have one life, and its yours to live. and to all the knockers, leave other women ALONE! we need each others support, not criticism. we say we want freedom, then we slam others for using THEIR freedom.

i use good quality skincare, wear sunblock, exercise and meditate, eat anti-oxidant food, think positive, and smile a lot. that's my personal botox, but i will probably pay for 'work' when i really need it (by MY estimation), because i want to retain my own face as long as possible. probly not botox tho, cos its just not my thing to have needles in my face.

aint it GRAND to be a woman with a mind of your own and freedom of choice?

[Shandra]

Like others I try to respect individuals' choices.

But I don't really believe that in isolation from media pressure, men's obsession with younger women, industry obsessions with youthful beauty (talk to women in sales and marketing!), that women would wake up one morning and say: I want to improve my life by getting a boob job and a neurotoxin injected into my face.

Basically when a woman says to me it's her choice, I think there are years of history and industry behind her. The fact is that if people are happy with the way they look, no one makes any money. Cosmetic companies, clothing companies, magazines, plastic surgeons (barring catastrophic events like burns etc.), hair dressers, aestheticians, etc., are all engaged in trying to make money. And they make money by subtly or unsubtly trying to create a "need" and they do that by creating insecurity.

I work for a fashion-oriented magazine for women 40-60 and I know damn well how up front people are about this being an industry. And it is.

[The Wooden Porch]

I'll answer your question. Because you LOOK HOT then and I LOOK CRAPPY. Though I don't look that crappy yet, I'm still skinny and in my 20's, but my time is coming and then you WILL STILL BE HOT and I WON'T BE.

But I'll still admire your picture when I'm saggy. So post some more for me to look at and judge.

Warmly,
Lani

[Becki]

Hmm. I'm opposed to plastic surgery for myself, but mostly because I'm lazy and cheap and fear pain. Trust me, I need a nose job like few people you've ever met. I'm not opposed to other people getting work done if they want, but I'm sad when they feel like they have to to meet some standard. It's never sounded like that's the case with you, though, so good for you for doing what you want.

[morgan faulkner]

Jeez, Ruth. She asked what her readers' opinions are of the procedures, no one (so far as I can tell) is 'knocking' her, or other women. Watch out for those knickers-in-a-twist wrinkles, lol!

Go Team Orange!!
heehee ;D

[21stCenturyMom]

I love botox. I only wish I could afford more. It cost me $320 JUST to get my brow frown done. The whole forehead would be another $500. Some day - maybe when I come to Cape Town next winter (our winter).

[Jody]

Eh, I mostly don't care what anyone does to her body (although I do think fake boobies look weird as people get older -- but that's just me, and I look weird all the time, really). I mean, I reserve the right to laugh when you can't move your eyebrows, but when the botox migrates to your brain and your sentences stop making sense, I promise not to laugh.

No, No. Truly -- go forth and be happy, Tertia. Whatever floats your boat.

I do think, though, that if lots and lots of women in your circle get botox/boobs/whatever, then it is much harder NOT to do those things, and that sucks. When all the 40-somethings are injecting fillers and not looking their age, then the folks who don't do the fillers/can't afford them/had enough of needles during their ART years are going to look like hags. Even if they're actually quite beautiful 40-somethings.

(I read the beginning of Sister Mel's post, and will say that I imagine God would rather I spent my $400 on poverty programs than wrinkle treatments. But last I checked, God hadn't appointed me Guardian of God's Word, so I can only do what I think is best and trust that Sister Mel is doing the same. Probably I should have sent my last book-purchase money to UNICEF, anyway.)

[teki]

Ummm, I've had lipo, botox and laser eye surgery. I would do all three all over again, no questions asked! I LOVED the Botox, thinking about doing it again actually as the wrinkles on my forehead break my heart. I'm glad you love your results!

[Lisa S.]

I thought you got Botox a long time ago? Like a year or two ago? Is this news? I'm way too lazy to go back but I could swear you did it several times and loved it but hated spending the $?

In any case, whatever floats your boat. I haven't had plastic surgery - and believe me, I need it, in many places - just b/c I want to spend the $ on other things first (the house, trips, wine). So it just hasn't been high enough on my priority list yet, but who knows, maybe one day it will be.

I just want to know, is it true what they say about get it before you really need it? Will it keep the mini-creases from deepening over time? If so, I am about 5 years late and better get on th eball!

[wendy]

I am not against it. I don't think I would ever do it simply because it makes one look like there is something wrong with their face.

[maggie]

before / after Pictures Please!!!

[Kathleen]

My problem with it is twofold.

One, women are setting an example for their daughters (and son's partners) that aging is a problem that women need to fix.

Two, women who choose to go along with the societal pressure that aging women/bodies are not acceptable are making it that much harder for those of us who refuse to participate.

If big breasts were not seen as the ideal, women would not get them. In fact, if models and actresses were getting reductions, so would most plastic surgery patients. Same with botox. If magazines were full of pictures of women aging naturally, being presented as beautiful, no woman would pay for it.

Individual women do not think up these activities and then folk over the money. Instead, society decides on a unrealistic idea for women and then, surprise, offers very expensives "fixes" to help women get to that ideal.

Bottom line, it's a scam. It makes me both terribly sad and a bit angry when women fall victim to it. Because no matter how much a woman thinks she's "doing it for herself", she flatly would not do it if the ideal being sold to her were different.

[Orange]

Ruth, Ruth: Sunscreen isn't to make the skin pretty. It's to prevent skin cancer, which can kill us. A Botox shot doesn't help prevent cancer.

Tertia, the radical feminists might argue that the woman who "chooses" to look like Barbie isn't choosing of her own free will. It is wickedly hard to elude the expectations and mandates of that patriarchy business. (Just ask any woman who doesn't want to get married or doesn't want to have kids.) It's nearly universal.

A garden-variety feminist like me can choose to wear lipstick occasionally, or get highlights to hide gray hairs, or wear nail polish. I am free to choose such things. Others may choose high heels, spending an hour on their hair and makeup, or taking a pole-dancing class. While these are all choices, they are not feminist acts. Just because a woman chooses something herself doesn't make it a feminist act.

Often, women do choose things that aren't feminist because it's so much easier to get through life that way. Sure, we could all insist that our husbands do 50% of the housework and 50% of the childcare. Society more or less expects women to do the bulk of this work (and unpaid, I might add), and it sure as hell is easier to change the diaper and do the dishes yourself than to fight against that guy watching TV and against all of society. (Did our parents raise us to expect 50/50 splits in domestic work? Rarely.) If you love your husband and your life, no, you're probably not going to divorce him just because he's not doing his fair share of housework. Tolerating this state of affairs is what we do, so very often. But it's not an act of feminist empowerment to do the laundry and take the kids to school. It just isn't.

Tertia, I could go on forever because it's late and I'm too tired to turn my head off.

One last thing—adding to what I said in my previous comment. It's not just that women are expected (in general, throughout society) to be decorative objects. We're also supposed to more or less maintain that whole "fuckable" vibe. I.e., both pretty and young-looking. Which is not to say that any individual woman's husband expects her to maintain a youthful appearance—just that it's fairly pervasive in society. (Anti-aging creams, plastic surgery, diets, makeup, hair color, Botox, etc., all play into this.)

[sunny]

Every now and then I watch an old movie and I'm thrilled with how unique and individually beautiful people looked before plastic surgery arrived on the scene to define beauty and help with the endless chase for youth. They don't all have the exact same bra size and they have a few wrinkles or funny noses. Its just so much more interesting than what we see now which is carbon copy people.

Sure make up and hair color is one thing. Getting surgery is a different level. Where does it stop? I think thats what people feel bad about.

Best to you. If you like botox, I sure don't care.

[sass]

well, tertia, the next time i make it down to cape town, maybe we can get together and compare our botoxed visages.... ;-)
it's been interesting reading through the comments because even though i've been getting botox since i was about 36 and living in l.a. (i'm now 44 and in johannesburg), i have a certain ambivalence about it. you know, the growing old gracefully as opposed to, well, you know, the opposite.
however, being in the line of work i'm in, makes it very difficult for me to look at my face, first of all in the make-up mirror for 40 minutes while the make-up artist tries her best to create some kind of illusion and then, having to see myself under harsh lights on monitors all day. it's a lot easier to live with and forget about your crinkly bits when you don't have to see it all the time.
i have to admit, a good botox doctor makes all the difference. you can end up looking totally frozen - which i have on occasion, and hate. all i want is to soften the crater between my eyes, but still have enough movement to be able to convey emotion (which is essentially what my job is about). it can be difficult conveying this sometimes when most doctors are used to patients who want their faces immobilized.
so far i'm fascinated by dr 90210, but my problem with elective (facial) surgery is that i have yet to see an after which looks better to me than the before and not obviously like surgery. having said that, i've just been blogging (with pictures - it's scary!) through a nightmare experience of laser resurfacing which went wrong. i went to a very reputable doctor in melrose arch (recommended by some highly visible south african schlebs) and yet my formerly smooth skin is now scarred and hyperpigmented and i get a fright everytime i look in the mirror. how ironic! i'm hoping that time will heal it.
still, despite my own disastrous recent experience, no, you won't get any flack from me about "up-grading". i think, to each his own, different strokes for different folks. as long as you're not harming anyone else in the process, and it's out of your own free will, i think you should do whatever makes you happy.

[Wobs]

Your body, your decision, your money, you face the consequences (good or bad, if there are any). I think you look bloody G&D and can't think where you could possibly need botox - but that is just my humble opinion. If it makes you feel better, then "just do it".

[anna]

I completely agree with what Hajen and Mijk said. Couldn't have said it better.

[anna]

adding: and I also agree with what Kathleen said (didn't read all comments first...)

I notice Mijk and I are European. Not sure about Hajen and Kathleen. It makes me wonder about the culural diffences leading into different opinions (and yes, I DO know 2 people are not a great base to set up a statistic result...)

[Trina]

I think it's wonderful that you can do what you want to with YOUR body. The only issue I have with it is that you are forever telling us how broke you are and how you can't afford things, then you spend money on botox and boobies. I mean if you can afford it, by all means, do it, but please stop telling us how you have NO money. K?

[Lisa]

I get snarky comments all the time and at 43 I haven't had any work done. However I do work out a lot, I am a triathlete and I must admit that I don't look too bad in a swimsuit and I haven't had any work done -- it's all from diet and exercise. I know the feeling though and I think it is all jealousy. I lost 80 lbs. three years ago, and before that felt pretty rotten about how I looked, but not rotten enough to do anything about it. When I got fit and started to look better, people would make the nastiest comments, mostly behind my back and I lost a few friends over it -- ie: now that I could "compete" with them, they didn't want to hang out with me. It's sad.

I do have the saggy boob problem, but I have always been a "B" cup, nursed twins and they went south pretty quickly. But a push-up bra fixes that right quick when I need them to be perky :-)

Personally, I don't have the time/money/inclination to have work done. I don't want to put my life at risk by going under the knife -- I have kids and they need a mommy. But I do work hard to stay in shape -- very hard -- and I feel good and am glad I can reap the benefits of that hard work.

[Tripsmom]

Would LOOOVEEE to do both, boobs and botox, just don't have the money right now. Hubby says I must just say the word and he'll find the money somewhere - for the boobs that is, not to phased about the botox as I am.

[Peter Njenga]

It is amazing how people do not accept themselves for who they really are. What is this fascination with (often costly, risky and painful) body modification to gain public appeal?
When you look at it really well, many people can avoid the travails of these boob jobs, botox and stuff like liposuction when eating healthy foods and exercising can do the job?
People should simply accept themselves and others for who they really are.
A good sense of Self Worth is what we all need. See http://peternjenga.blogspot.com/2008/07/wonderful-week-self-worth.html

[isabel]

I'm not planning on dying my hair or having botox, but I sure am planning on having my varicose veins removed and I certainly got braces on my teeth the second I could afford them. We all do what we are comfortable with and able to afford: and if that's nothing at all then more power to ya!

[Pat]

I don't think it's my job to judge whether random strangers should or should not have botox or cosmetic surgery, but as some of the others have said, it is the bigger picture of societal pressure, however subtle, that makes me feel sad. I worry about the messages we send to little girls - and big girls too - about being satisfied with their bodies and about how beauty is really defined.

While I would not presume to say someone is wrong to have whatever procedure done (with the obvious exceptions where people are addicted to and abuse these processes), when I read statements like "the wrinkles on my forehead break my heart," my heart breaks a little too.

[Ruth]

hey orange, just to clarify - i don't wear sunblock to prevent skin cancer, i wear it to prevent the sun from prematurely aging my skin. he he, might seem shallow - but, it's why i do it! 'prematurely aging' says it all - why look i look older than i need to? more seriously, i question just who has the right to say how i SHOULD' look like at 47? should society decide, and judge me for looking older or fatter etc etc than i could look if i cared for myself enough (by societal terms)? or, should i be listening to the the outcries of other women re how inappropriate some anti-aging measures are, and instead'AGE GRACEFULLY' - sometimes the rhetoric around that issue is incredibly destructive, because again, it is OTHER PEOPLE dictating my choice?

neither of those alternatives are right for me` - the third choice, the one i prefer, is to make my own informed decisions about how i want to look, and revel in the power of my own womanliness.

and morgan - my comment re knocking other women was about women in general - not solely on this blog - kind of a wake-up call/reminder to myself and others to get off other women's cases; i struggle with my own the double standards sometimes - in that i find myself being critical of other women making and living out personal choices.

peace out!

[JG]

I think all of these actions lie on a continuum of acceptability. If I hear that you spent $3 at the drugstore for some toenail polish, oh well, we all need the little pretty joys in life. If I hear that you spent $50,000,000 for a special lip injection that is mined from the soil of Mars and filtrated through the membranes of specially bred ponies and could very well kill you, then I'm likely to think you're a complete idiot whose priorities are far, far out of whack.

Everything else is sort of in the middle, and it just depends on who you talk to, I think. The more expensive and dangerous it gets, the less approval you'll find socially, both because people think it's a waste of money and because they don't want to feel pressured to have to do such expensive/dangerous things themselves just to keep up.

And there's a difference between respecting your choice and approving of it. I'd say people are respecting it if they aren't harassing you about it or trying to legally stop you. If they disagree when you ASK them what they think ... I honestly don't think that's disrespectful of your right to make the choice. They just don't approve, that's all, but if you wait for everyone to approve of what you do, you'll be waiting a very long time.

[Mary]

Pictures! I want to see pictures!

I wouldn't have plastic surgery or Botox, but I couldn't possibly care less if you want to. If it makes you feel better about yourself, go for it!

[meme]

Because no one expects MEN to get either and I hate to see other women complying with totally farked up gender expectations and perpetuating them for future generation of little girls that will grow up believing that their bodies are inadequate and the natural process of aging is wrong.

[Robin Hood]

I am 61, Proud of it and my body/face shows I am 61. Each part of my life has been so special. Why would I want to maintain a certain part and then miss out on what I am curretly going through? Being a saggy bodied Ouma with erect boobs and botoxed face - now THAT looks ghastly!

[Barb]

I was seriously considering getting Botox, recently. And then in June, (since it's a political year in the U.S.) another thought occured to me.

Instead of spending a good chunk of my disposible incomes on clothes, shoes, hair, makeup, face creams, Botox, etc., what would happen if I spent it on getting more women elected to political office? Would bidding adieu the wage disparity between men an women would make me even happier than ridding myself of my wrinkles?

Right now, donating to Emily's list seems to be a more satisfying way to spend my money. But I must confess that I am very conflicted about the whole issue of cosmetic improvements.

[lurker amy]

Obviously all this time I have NOT BEEN SHAVING MY ARMPITS has gone completely ignored by the world at large. I am going to go find a razor.

You should do whatever you want. I personally will be the last person on the face of the earth hitting the 'tox. I am too scared it will give me cancer.

The thing that bugs me about the whole industry is that it is all a girl thing. We have to be cute and look young and be a MILF and all that jazz. I wish we had the equivalent of a silver fox, a sexy wrinkled up Richard Gere, that we could aspire to.

I think pictures are in order.

[Dondi Tiples]

I would love to have some Botox injections! But I read somewhere that your face gets all stiff and you can't go through your normal range of expressions. I'm thinking of hyaluronic fillers, which actually stimulate collagen production. *sigh* Will need to work harder to afford it, though.

[Kathleen]

When my breasts started to age, I drew some confidence from what my parents had instilled in me but mostly I drew confidence from the fact that I had seen my mother, my aunts, my grandmothers age naturally.

If my first, and strongest, impressions of women's bodies had been nipped and tucked ones, I doubt I would have had the confidence to love my body as I do during this aging process.

And I certainly do not think that plastic surgery patients are mindless. But they are victims. We are all victims of a patriarchal society that uses sexism, racism and many other "isms" to keep people in line.

Unless you can honestly say that it was a toss up between making your breasts smaller or large, adding more wrinkles or getting rid of them, then you are conforming to an ideal of womanhood that you did not invent. No one spends thousands of dollars to make themselves look less like that ideal, which would happen if this were truly about being an idividual, that's why the idea that women do this just for themselves or that it's truly empowering is not supportable.

I understand the deals women make with society as I do it too. But I just will not go along with the idea that somehow these deals are good for women in the long run. I wish, so very much, that women had not come to believe that paying thousands upon thousands of dollars to a doctor with a knife or needle in their hand was a reasonable approach to aging.

[taz]

Dyeing your grey hair and having plastic surgery are not even comparable- sorry, but that is laughable.
The thing is - more and more woman( and unfortunately young girls) are transforming themselves into walking Barbies.
This sets a precedent and shifts the norm further and further away from natural and normal. Natural is no longer good enough. The thinner models get, the thinner "mrs. average' needs to be in order to be deemed desirable ( and desirable is something we all want to be) Our daughters will be influenced by our body image, the media, and by the bodies of the woman surrounding them. They are going to be wanting boob jobs too- but they are going to be wanting them in their teens.They already are! This makes me so sad. This is a time when we should all be waking up to the bleeding obvious messages the universe is sending us- cut the greed,plastic,excess,junk- but are we listening? No -we are injecting it into ourselves.
I have always believed in 'live and let live' - but this is something I feel very strongly about. Not meant as a personal attack please Tertia. I am pleased that you are happy with your procedures and I wish you nothing but happiness and chardonay :) BUT there IS a big picture here and we are ALL part of it.

[akeeyu]

Okay. Sunscreen and hair dye are not like botox and tit jobs. They're just not remotely comparable until you have to go to a doctor for sunscreen, or sign release waivers for a henna rinse.

Saying they are similar is trivializing the issue, and as far as The Issue goes, pick any of Orange's comments, or Kathleen, above.

Nobody is saying you don't have a right to do this, so clearly, we're all respecting your RIGHT to do it, we just don't all agree.

It always makes me sad, you know, that somebody considers outward appearance THAT important and dislikes theirs SO MUCH that they're willing to have someone stick a knife in them. That's huge.

[minor matters]

I love the idea of botox but I am way too scared: needles of stuff into my forehead. Are you mad! According to a doctor of beauty in Joburg I would need pots of the stuff. She's never seen a forehead so full of muscles operating in different directions. I will look like a prune pretty soon if specialists don't come up with a more friendly way of using it. Hopefully we can imbibe the stuff soon.
Great blog.

[Carrie Jo]

I have no problems with people doing things that have no effect on me. That's one of the hings that bothers me about the whole gay marriage thing. It's one thing to have a preference about something or to state your concerns about something to a close friend or family member, but when you hardly know a person and their decisions don't have any real effect on you, it's really none of your business what they do. It's not like a crime is being committed for cripes sake.

[pdxem]

I dont have a problem with botox, or breast implants, Ive never been one for telling consenting adults what they should or should not do with their bodies, and that includes smoking whatever they like to smoke.
I have a favorite auntie that I resemble very much. She started getting surgical procedures done in her early 50's. I now know pretty much what I will look like at 65, if I have a face lift, a breast lift, a tummy tuck, a bit of lipo,, a small nose job. Fabulous. I consider these things to be gifts of modern science.

[Katie]

For me, I find aging beautiful. With that being said, I have NO problem with people doing whatever they want to feel beautiful.

But I have to admit, I wouldn't mind going under the laser to permanently remove hair. Course, as you age - that seems to fall out anyway. Except on your upper lip and chin. Of course.

[dregina]

This might be of interest to you. It does a pretty damn good job of summing up my objections to botox/plastic surgery, etc.

http://www.sweetney.com/linkblog/2008/08/killing-us-soft.html

[juliag]

well. i don't really care in one sense. do what you need to do. what you want to do.

but it seems like such a waste of time, money and effort. plus, *is* it really worth risking your life over? how would it be as a kid to say "my mom died because she wanted to be prettier". ugh. makes me sick.

and this might sound snippy, but the fact that you spend your extra $$ on cosmetic surgery makes me not want to donate to any of your causes. it's like, "she's flitting away money on botox and she's asking me to put my hard earned cash towards her friends in need?" really. it just feels weird. couldn't you have just paid for rose's necessary boob job, instead of us paying for it -- and then you go buy your own?!?

i'm sure i'm just being judgmental. you would probably think some of my "necessary" expenses are silly and not worth the money. but then again, i'm not asking you to shell out money for my causes.

[Dreamer]

I'm with Lisa S. - I remember you mentioning Botox before, although not in debate format.

[Dreamer]

P.S. I'm the same age as you, and although I wouldn't get Botox myself, I'm all for a woman making choices for her own body. I think we all have a mental image of what we should look like, and thankfully we live in a day and age where we can make medical/cosmetic adjustments.

[Carol]

Of course I would still be friends with someone who had fake boobs and botox and such, if she had other qualities that I liked. But in this particular matter I would secretly feel that my hippie nature-girl values are superior to her shallow, materialistic ones.

But this could be the same friend that I admire for other reasons: maybe she is an excellent mom, maybe she's more discreet, mature, or brave than I am. Maybe she's talented at something that I'm not. Or whatever.

I think stuff like botox and what it says about your values is a little thing. Something like murdering someone or racism or manipulativeness and what it says about your values are bigger things.

[anonforthis]

As someone who has never had any procedures and has no plans/desire to have any in the near future, I say this: nip it, tuck it, suck it, it's your body. It is dismaying to read the responses here that indicate that people feel they are superior to those who have had procedures because they have chosen a different path. I don't think that any woman has a responsibility to anyone but herself in terms of how she looks. Someone should not get plastic surgery because they want to conform to what the elusive "they" thinks a woman should look like; we should not abstain from getting a procedure that we want because we will be taken out behind the metaphorical woodshed by the all natural camp. The whole idea of honoring one's responsibility to this loosely formed idea of "the sisterhood" before honoring oneself is foolish. And for those who think she has a responsibility to her daughter to remain unaltered, I think Tertia's attitude that Kate has the power to change whatever she doesn't like and what makes her unhappy is a good one.

But I do think you ought to not complain about how broke you are before telling us how much Dr. Botox costs. ;-D

[Sarah]

I cannot help but notice that nobody has mentioned vanity surgery as being a class issue. Tertia mentioned she is teaching her daughter that if she isn't happy with something, she can change it and that she doesn't have to accept herself the way she is. What an awful thing to think that it's ok to send this message to a girl in this society.

What if she doesn't have to financial means to 'change' herself the way you have. Situations rarely stay the same and you may not be in a position to help her achieve her 'goals' when she realises she is not good enough the way she is (and she will). What a classist way you obviously think to not even consider that vanity procedures are not even remotely accessible to most people in this world.

[prosaica]

I'm in late on this, but I'm adding my 2c. First of all: glad you could afford it, liked the result, and didn't get sick. It's YOUR body, YOUR choice. Period.

Second: I hate it when people criticize suh personal choices. But this involves also my personal choice not to wear makeup, not to dye my hair, not to wear heelsetc. BTW I do put on sunscreen, because it prevents me from gettin skin cancer - I think one can't compare sunscreen with any cosmetic procedure; it's a health issue.

So as you claim to respect other people's choices on how they want to look like (did I mention my husband's horrible orange socks?) more power to you!

And yes, I know rich people have more choices and so look better than poor one. But as in most of the world poor people lack equal access to education and healthcare, the issue of equal access to cosmetic surgery seems to me irrelevant in comparison. Again: I'm glad for you that you got what you wanted, and I hope we can all stop criticizing each other's estethic choices.

About children: my daughter will be free to get any cosmetic surgery she wants when she's able to pay for it herself :-).

[montclair dermatology]

I wanna know if really doesn't matter if you undergo in this kind of treatment or not? I know its helpful but you think the side effect on this is not bad?

by: sphin