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I actually agree with one of the posters - BabyCenter shouldn't have posed this question. It's up there with "how many children should people be allowed to have".

OK so I couldn't even get past the first entry....WTF???? Do we need to pose the question to "regular" people...like that family in Utah or wherever who has 17 "natural" kids? UGH the fact that someone even thought this was appropriate for debate is sickening. Maybe I should have answered after coffee....

Grrrrrr....I agree with perceval, not fun to read before having enough coffee. WTF is right! We need some of our folks at IVFC to pop in there and straighten em out. I was so accustomed to IVFC boards and talking with people who "understand" infertility that I tend to forget how many ignorant assclowns there are out there! Although how can I forget when my "unnatural" twins and I get asked all the time...."do twins run in your family"? The lady with the comment about her "natural", "special" twins completely pissed me off! grrrr again!

What a strange thread that is... why would you use medicine to make your body do something was one of the responses? The responder to that stupid statement pointed out that's what ALL medicine does... do these people have so much extra time on their hands that they sit around and debate, for fun, how many children infertile people should be allowed to have and why? Please!

Who are these people, honestly? Reading stuff like these responses makes me sick to my stomach. I don't understand why they care enough to judge others. And yes, the unnatural or making your body do things pushed me over the edge. ARGH!

Mmmmmm. I love the smell of judgmental in the morning. . .

Thanks, T! ;)

Yes, there are truely some real asshats out there! People amaze me sometimes with their line of thinking. I took clomid AND twins run in my family. I have no idea which one of the two caused me to have twins, and I could care less. I got them, thats all that matters to me. I hate, hate, hate that question as it doesn't matter.

I haven't read it yet, and probably won't because then I will feel the need to comment. I have seen these debates in the past though, and they are never pretty.

Discussions like this just make my blood boil. But I do notice that the people who say the most asinine things also seem to be the worst spellers, and have very poor grammar, confirming for me that they are, for the most part, uneducated, unintelligent clods.

The whole "unnatural" thing really gets to me. It is okay to wear glasses to correct a defect in your vision, but not okay to use IVF to overcome a problem with your fallopian tubes? And does anyone here know anyone who used IVF to have 6, 7, or 8 kids? Okay, I do "know" one woman who had five kids, one naturally conceived, and then four conceived easily with fertility treatments (including a set of twins), and was desperately, and at great cost, trying for more, even though she was 45. She got pregnant even at 45, but had a miscarriage. I don't think she was ever very infertile, just needed a bit of help, but by 45 had simply reached the end of the line fertility-wise. I had no problem with her trying to have more kids, but I sometimes thought it was a little insensitive of her to be posting daily on infertility boards about how devastated she was that she couldn't have more children, when so many of the women had no children at all. Sorry to get off topic, but that is the only example I know of someone using IVF to have 6 or more kids.

I commented there yesterday. I don't understand why people who struggle with their fertility should be limited in the number of children they can have when there are people everywhere who can't afford to feed the children they've already had naturally who are pregnant with baby number 7.

If a limit should be placed on anyone it should be on people who spend their entire lives on welfare.

Crazy talk. I can't believe Baby Center would even allow such a question to be posted. I can't even elaborate on it, it infuriates me so much. It's just plain wrong on so many levels.

Ugh! So that is where the Great Ignorant Populous post. Gosh, if there were any group I would want restricted with respect to breeding it would be them. Double Ugh!

Oh, oh, oh, apparently some people have too much spare time at their hands...I bet that all those who think that fertility tx are "unnatural" have a. a minimum of 3 kids of their own and b. are the first ones running to the Dr when they have some problems.

I read a breastfeeding post there and judging by the spelling and the ridiculous brainless comments, all I could think was, Ah God love them, they are as dumb as rocks!

"sure nowadays many children live in poverty but that is not a reason to prevent people from having children."

Um. Yes. It is.

"all I could think was, Ah God love them, they are as dumb as rocks!" Right on Hazel.

The question is inflammatory, so obviously the responses (which I do not intend to waste my time on) will be as well.

Okay T, well that got me all woken up this morning!

I really like this statement: "but if a couple can't get pregnant on their own and they do have a multiple birth by fertility treatments they may want more than 2 or 3 so go for it. They deserve to have a big family just as much as those of us who can have our own children."

While I guess in an off handed way she was saying it's okay to do IF treatments, it was the "those of us who can have our OWN children"

So since I did IVF dd apparently isn't my OWN child??? WTF??

I've taken a lot of heat over the choices we made to have our family. And for how many kids we have.

I have 8 kids. I've used clomid for a couple of them. IUI for one. IVF (3 tries) for our twins.

When we did IVF, we already had 6 kids. So there were not a lot of kind comments to be had, even by family.

We have ALWAYS supported our family on our own. We aren't rich, but we aren't poor. We have enough money for all our needs, as well as some of our wants. We have a savings account and retirement fund.

We had a failed adoption after child number three. Losing my son when he was 2 weeks old was devastating. Especially when he went home with a crack head alcoholic to be abused and neglected instead of to a safe, loving home with us.

I don't care how anyone builds their family. Screw like rabbits (if it works for you), use fertility treatments, surrogates, adopt, don't have kids, have a half dozen or more.

And I just *love* how it's the infertiles responsibility to adopt. As if infertiles are soley responsible for these kids not having homes or being palced into homes. Seems to me, the fertile folks created the issue- why don't THEY step up to the palte and adopt a few of these "poor kids?"

Some folks just need something to bitch about... (including me it seems! HA!)

Janis--Do you mind if I ask why you decided to do IVF after having six kids? Did you just know you wanted more children and knew your fertility was declining (due to age, presumably)? I'm not criticizing, I'm just honestly curious. Also, I'm so sorry about your failed adoption; that is a horrendous thing to have to go through. What a terrible loss.


After our first child, I had an IUD put in. (20 years ago those things sucked!) I ended up with a pelvic infection and some scarring.

After our second child was born, I had a massive uterine infection due to retained placental tissue. More scarring.

Then I developed endometriosis and stopped ovulating on a regular basis.

Clomid and IUI brought us Caitelin. After she was born, I was told after another lap and laser treatment for the endo that both my tubes were blocked. I would not get pregnant on my own again, the dr. said.

That's when this adoption fell into our laps. Sadly, the biomom changed her mind and we lost our son.

Several months after that, I found out I was pregnant. I was stunned.

Baby #5 came after another lap showed my tubes were open, and a few rounds of clomid as I still was npt ovulating much.

When I was pregnant with #6, hubby had a vasectomy. When he was 4 years old, hubby had a change of heart and had a reversal. It left us with very low motility, antibodies and less than 2 million sperm.

I was diagnosed with PCOS, crappy eggs and advanced age. I was 35.

Our first IVF cycle was cancelled for poor response.

The next one was a BFN.

The third and final cycle was positive.

We had our embryo transfer on Friday, January 24th, 2003. On Monday, the 27th, our 16 year old daughter took her own life. The Friday before her funeral I found out I was pregnant.

Eight months later, our twins were born.

I realize how very blessed we have been... And I am thankful every day for these precious gifts we've been given...

Does this help? :)

Janis--Holy crap. I don't even know what to say. I'm so sorry, and congratulations on your twins.

FIRST: Janis, your ability to be upfront about everything you have been through is amazing. I almost felt guilty reading your second post - I felt like an eavesdropper! But, your story is very moving.

SECOND: This whole babycenter link is just kind of...out there. I don't even see the point in their story. Everyone has the right to however many or few rugrats they want now, don't they? And, however you get to that number is up to you. I know of two couple-friends of mine who are VERY fertile and chose to adopt their third child (in both cases) who would adopt more if they chose to...but this article implies that adoption is for the rest of us who need a little help in the conception department. I think if you have the means to do it and the finances to support that child or children, then more power to you!

Judy - raising my 2 miracles and trying to decide if we need another one or call it quits!

Just wanted to say thanks to Tertia, for giving me another outlet in which I can waste so much more time instead of working!!!

I didn't read that particular post b/c I can imagine both sides of the argument and how heated they will turn, and frankly, I just don't care about those people's opinions.

But, ahhhh, the two hours I spent weaving in and out of the rest of the boards, those were just icing.
(on top of the cake)

Hey Tertia,

This has nothing to do with your post. You had a poll a couple of days ago about whether people are pissed off when they don't fit into the categories in the polls. Well, I love your polls, I think they are loads of fun. But I often don't fit into any of the categories (like today's) because they are about people with partners. You just need a category in there for "N/A because I don't have a partner but I want to have the pleasure of clicking on a button anyway because I already get left out of enough things because I don't have a partner, not that I'm bitter or sensitive about that at all."

Just sayin'.

In all other respects, LOVE your blog.

Janis: You Rock. takes balls to be that open about that much pain.

Tertia: you drive a sports car?

Damn! I am CHILDLESS and I don't drive a sports car! (obviously MUCH more responsible then you)


Had to delurk to give my 2-cents on the stupid babycenter debate question. WTF?? Who came up with that "debate question" anyway? I feel certain it was a very fertile myrtle just trying to stir the pot. Well, it worked, this sort of junk totally makes my blood boil.

OK, my rant is over. I feel much better now.

Tertia - I'm a first time poster, but a loyal reader (lurker?) and I must say your posts are superb. Should be required reading for any woman ttc.

Asshats...the lot of them.

I want to know why the responsibility of taking in the world's needy children falls only on the infertile folks shoulders? Do the ability to get knocked up without thinking aboutit somehow absolve you of any moral impreative to adopt? As if you have concieved via nothing more than sex therefore you get a free pass and never have to think about anyone else?

Grrr...cranky from retrieval...idiots.

Hey Tertia! I've read you for a VERY long time! (I also struggle with infertility, I just don't have my happy ending yet!) I'm very honored to have you in the Crazy Hip Blog Mamas!

All my best to you and yours! Your children are more beautiful every day!!

At the BabyCenter forum...

...Blackbird/Tracy says people who have 3,4,5,6 kids at a time can't support them on their own. Well, we aren't on welfare and we have triplets. She also says we need help with everyday chores. Excuse me, but no one has helped me with the housework or anything whatsoever (other than DH) since the babies were 3-weeks old. She says we don't re-use or recycle baby clothing/gear. DUH, um, almost ALL of our children's clothing/gear is from yard sales, consignment stores, or hand-me-downs. I wonder, does this woman actually know any families with triplets and more?

...vanessasheldon says that "Maybe all this infertility is natures way of population control." Okay, Vanessa Honey. So are heart attacks, strokes, diabetes, cancer, measles, small pox, influenza, and so on. So let's just go back to the dark ages medically and let Nature control the population "naturally". And when a woman is in labor and things go wrong, let's just let her AND the baby die, because that's the "natural" way for population control. Right?

...noavsmom is a genius. Her perception is this: "the truth of the matter is we shouldn't be so concerned about how many kids people doing fertility treatments have. We should be more concerned about how many kids FERTILE people have! Generally, people who do IVF do not end up creating families that end up on welfare, and children who are raised in poverty." AMEN TO THAT!!!

...CPN2003 says it best: "I don't think this topic is even worthy of a debate. Other people's reproduction is none of our business, no matter what they choose to do!"

Something I did not read (I stopped around 90) was a rebuttal to all the women saying that it's okay to limit the number of children if someone is unable to support them financially. While on the surface this sounds delightful, if you think about it it's horrific. What this would entail would be forced abortions, forced adoptions (e.g., ripping a child from it's mothers arms and giving it to another family), and forced sterility for all the poor people or those not financially well off.

Yeah..I'm just confused why people think it's their business how many kids other people have, and how.
Unassisted pregnancies are expensive, too. Mine cost at least as much as IVF (well, okay, the NICU did, but still). And adoptions, also.
It's kind of condescending really. Who are these people to tell anyone what is right or wrong regarding such a personal issue?

Wow. A lot of those people suck.

And Holy Christ, Janis... what a story. But an amazing one. Congratulations on the wonderful family!

oh btw, I think some people say things without really thinking about it.

I have a good friend, very sweet, who once said to me, "I don't understand why people go through fertility treatments when there are children waiting for homes."

Normally I would have been upset at the comment - but she was just so sweet that I kept calm and said, "Until you've experienced the pain of infertility, I don't think it's fair to say something like that."

And she said, "I guess you're right - I never thought of that before."

Not everyone is an asshat. They just don't think.

And all this time I thought you were working out of the home to support your drug habit.

I guess its wrong to assume.

1. Very disappointed in Baby Center.
2. Here's a question: Our welfare system (in the U.S.) was set up to give TEMPORARY assistance to those who need it and have paid into the system in the past.
I did IVF single with anonymous donor sperm and my last thin dime as my clock was about to strike "KITCHEN CLOSED" and now find myself after faithfully paying my (v v high) taxes into the system on welfare, foodstamps, medicaid and WIC. My twins are 6 months old (my dad pays the rent). I plan to go back to work as soon as I am able (believe me i am happy to leave the twinks behind a.s.a.p.!) but, have found tremendous temporary financial relief from Uncle Sam after 30 years of paying into the system. I am a white, upper middle class gal with a law degree.
I have absolutely no problem with my situation, yet, others do.
Why is it a problem for people to see women who have done IVF on welfare? Just because it temporarily bankrupted me doesn't mean i shouldn't have had the same opportunity to "take some medicine" to help me with my fertility problem (AMA) and get something back from the system i have so graciously contributed to for 3 decades (from a 6 figure income, i might add)...
NO ONE in the world has the right to tell me whether or not or how I can have a baby, or, how many. NEVER!!!!!
And, nobody has the right to say that welfare shouldn't help support them, if necessary. IVF babies deserve the same rights and respect as all other babies and how a child is conceived should be of no bearing when discussing welfare.
Believe me when i tell you that i possibly have paid more taxes so far than most welfare recipients will ever earn in their lifetimes.
So... all you judgmental assclowns ought to think twice before speaking.

Threads like those make me want to bang my head against the wall. Repeatedly.


in the UK, you would be on Maternity Leave, commanding (depending on your employer) up to half your salary for six months. You would get $100 per month, tax credits and childcare vouchers. And the UK system is on the crappier and meaner end of European systems.

You're taking time out to raise future tax payers.


I stopped reading after this
"I have 5 beautiful girls, all conceived naturally and if I couldn't of created them that way, I probably wouldn't have been able to conceive them at all. I'am thankful that my body was able to do this, the "normal" way. I feel bad for the women that have to go through IVF, I know that it is painful and emotionally grueling as I'm sure they do before they go through with it. I give these women alot of credit if they choose to do IVF, especially if they do it more than once.
If they can afford the procedure, then by all means they should do it however many times they want to do it. Who am I to tell someone how many kids they should or shouldn't have? I get alot of strange looks when I go out in public with my 6 kids(I have a bonus son)but it doesn't matter to me, because I know that I'm NOT depending on anyone else to pay for all of our necesseties. We struggle at times but at the end of the day, I look at those faces and never regret any of them. Regret and children SHOULD never be in the same sentence, JMHO. So, for all the women that can not conceive the "natural" way, I say as long as you can afford it, GO FOR IT!"

Normal? Natural? I'm a fertile - I think - I didn't try to conceive my first and while I've started thinking about a second I'm not TTC (still actively preventing it) I have no idea really.
I've been reading all these blogs for a few months and been amazed by all your courage. You've all put yourlseves through SO much and some of you have been rewarded and some are still waiting but you all keep going - that strength amazes me.

That babycentre debate pissed me off no end - but I stopped reading after the above "normal" I can't even describe how that made me feel I was just disgusted.

I feel like relocating to the U.K. and hugging you.
Thank you v v much.

Although I think this thread was insensitive and well, just plain insulting and stupid I'm wondering if it was born from something here in Australia?

A woman here is due to give birth to her second set of quads in 18 months after IUI. It raised a lot of ethical and "other" issues when it was announced.


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