Ouch

Well, if you ask the question publicly, you should expect to receive all sorts of really honest and heartfelt answers.

Thank you to every one who has participated in the circumcision conversation, from both sides of the foreskin fence.  I really appreciate that it was (mostly) done in an unemotional mature way.  Some comments were quite pointed, those ones were the ouch ones.  But that’s okay.  I asked the question.

A few comments in response:

Some people seemed to be upset that I said I was leaving the decision up to Marko.  You should know I am not the passive wallflower type, exact opposite in fact.  I am not sitting here saying ‘oh big strong husband, the leader in our family, I am too thick to make a decision, you do it’.  Believe me I know parenting children requires input from both parents (if there are two involved), it is just that I didn’t feel strongly for or against and he felt strongly for.  If I had felt strongly about the subject in any way, not only would I have insisted on being involved in the decision, but Marko would have listened to my opinion. I am ‘allowing’ him to make the final decision, although even that is not cast in stone, I asked the question after all.  Makes sense? 

Some of you asked whether I was sorry I asked the question.  Not at all.  As you might have noticed I love asking questions and learning.  I am open to various viewpoints and like to make educated decisions.  I am going to be asking and raising lots more controversial view points in the very near future.  Watch out for SAHM’s vs Working moms, styles of parenting, discipline etc.  I embrace diversity, it is what makes us so interesting.  And I love your input, whether it is for or against my beliefs.

I would have loved to have had some more input from men themselves, because after all, it is them that have to bare the consequences of this decision.

As for how common circumcision is here in SA, I don’t really know to be honest.  It is a cultural thing and depends on what culture you belong to.  Remember, we are a country of huge diversity, we have 11 official languages!!  Having said that, all the men in my life are circumcised, it is what I know. 

Another question was:  has the conversation influenced my decision.  It has made me think about it a lot harder than before.  Because circumcision is the norm in my life, I hadn’t really thought about not doing it.  I am now thinking about both sides of the foreskin/coin.  I have to say though, that ferocity of emotion of the non-cutters makes me feel almost too scared to admit that I will / would have it done. 

I have asked Marko to read the comments, I hope he does but I don’t hold out much hope, he is not a big reader I’m afraid.  He reads about as much as he chats. 

I am going to speak to the Dr about it, and ask his advice as well. 

One thing I do agree on, is that I / we need to do what is best for OUR family.  I just hope that we know what that ‘best’ is.

Thanks again to all of you for your input, much appreciated.

Oh, and may all your dreams and wishes come true in 2005!  Two more hours to go here until midnight.

Comments

[Julie]

We've got 12 hours until midnight here...

Youe cut/un cut post got me thinking too. Though my boys are already cut, and I would probably do it again, I will give it more thought next time. (If there is a next time)

2 more hours!!! Then you will have HBIJ!!!

Hugs
Julie

[Mollie]

Here's hoping you never have to erect a foreskin fence.

[Rose]

2 hours to midnight? So, HBIJ it is! Fantastic.

[Lisa]

Posts sure to stir a lot of comments- breast/bottle, crib/co-sleeping, pacifiers, cloth/disposable, gin/vodka. I am usually on the non-pc side of most of these.

Little over 10 hours to January here.

My daughter's entire school year has been focused on studying S.Africa this year. She really wants to go now.

[Kelly]

I am confident that you and Marko will make the best decision and that either way Adam and his little weenus will be just fine.

Two hours left! Fuck, looks like you are really gonna make it to January now!

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaahoooooooooooooo!
Party is at my house, come on over!!!

[AyEnDeeAreEeAyAitch]

No matter what our beliefs are, it's yours that matter. I will support either way...Oh, S. Africa I would love to see. I know you do have beauties bred there like Charlize Theron (and of course you!) and I think I have hear Afrikaans beeing spoken, It sounds pretty cool.

[Lisa]

Happy New Year from the other side of the planet! Congrats on keeping the babies in til Jan.

[Donna]

Your comment..."I have to say though, that ferocity of emotion of the non-cutters makes me feel almost too scared to admit that I will / would have it done."

Is exactly what i was feeling, and that's why i didn't respond to your cut/uncut question. My son is circumcised, he was brought to me within minutes of it being done, and no he wasn't crying, and never seemed to be in pain from it. Yes, if i were to have more boys (which I'm not, i have a daughter and a son, now i'm looking into becoming a surrogate) I would have it done again.

[wix]

happy new year, tertia! i'll have to go back and read the comments, as i too left the final decision to my husband (as i believe i mentioned). for me, it came down to the fact that i don't have a penis, and am therefore not as qualified as he to decide.

[LPF]

I think it's only about 25 minutes to midnight for you now, so much congratulations on a healthy and happy start to 2005 with two healthy babies almost ready to meet the world!

[Rebekah]

Two more hours?! Yaaay!! You made it, T! What a Happy New Year it will be for you and your family! (I just thought of your Mom for some reason ... she must be beside herself with joy, along with the rest of your family).

HBIJ! =)

[Boulder]

Welcome to January - Healthy Babies THIS Month!!!

HBTM!!! HBTM!!!!

Welcome to 2005~Yay!!

xoxo

[Kay]

I think it's JANUARY where you are! Congratulations! 2HBIJ! Way to go Tertia.

FWIW, I also left the decision to my husband, because I'm not a man - and what do I know of penii? I have only ever seen the circed kind. I do remember that I asked him pointedly if he felt "cheated" on sexual pleasure by having the cut - he said no. We had Jake cut. The hard part is that they came to get him while I was nursing and would not let me finish. That sucked b/c my hormones were already a mess. And besides that I had two unwelcome visitors in the room as well. I made them leave. I was too emotional to have company at that time.

I think that no matter what decisions you make in the lives of Adam and Kate, there will always be 2nd-guessing. That's just a part of parenting.

I feel positive that Marko and you will make the best decisions that you possibly can.

All the best in 2005!

[Carrie]

While I am in the fervent non-cutting category, to judge you poorly on your decision would be to judge my grandparents, parents, aunts and uncles, cousins, and best friends who've chosen to cut. Don't be afraid to admit your choice. You asked the question, are thinking the decision through. Just because you came to a different conclusion than I with the same information does not make either of us wrong. After how you've taken care of yourself and the little beans during this entire pregnancy, I am sure that whatever decision you make will be the right one for your son.

Happy New Year!

[Angie]

I'm so glad you are doing what is right for "your" family.
I also think it's great that you left the "final" decision up to Marko. Some women feel SO strongly regarding circumsision that they don't let the father of the child have much say over the matter. I think it's important that the father be in on the decision making. I also happen to view it as "normal" because everyone male in both of our families have been "cut" and that was a huge part of our decision.
Don't let anyone question your decision. You are the one making it, not them.
Happy New Year!

[Mollie]

Yeah, and this: if circumcision were truly as egregious as some would make it out to be, it would probably be done only under cover of night in back alleys.

Wait, that is true of female circumcisions... oh well.

Perhaps some day the law will decide for us. For now, it doesn't. It's optional, and legal, and once it's done... it's done.

All my love and support to you, the HB's who will be born in J, and your unsheathed, beastly hot husband.

[Kristin]

Fan-fucking-tastic!!! Unless you go into overdrive, its BABIES IN JANUARY!!! And, good luck making the decision that is right for your family!

[blackbird]

Happiest of new years to you and yours.
I have five hours and will never make it awake...

[tess]

it's 9am on the 1st in sunny and cold hong kong.

babies, this is your month!

[Gale]

I lurk more than comment, but wanted to say how happy I am for you that you and your babies are doing so well.

And you know what, I don't think the decision to cut or not is all that big of a deal. I, too, was surprised that it seemed to be such a hot topic for some, mainly the "un-cut" crowd. I had my son circ'd and had no problems what-so-ever. I don't know that men who are cut, or un-cut, go through emotional trauma. Well, there was a man I dated once, who was cut, who talked about being mutilated "down there", but he had issues larger than the foreskin that had been snipped in his infancy! Your son will be fine, which ever way you go. If the biggest problem he has in life is his foreskin -either the presence or absence of it, he will be a lucky boy indeed.

I wish you all the best in this New Year with your babies.

[missbanshee]

Yeehoo!!! HBIJ are a given! I am SO happy for you, Tertia. The internerds are just. so. happy.

[lilmisstypo]

YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhh i know it is the new year there .... and ya made it ... yeah babies ..... you rock .. now when ya come out come out nicely ...... and stay healthy

[Andrea]

Mostly a lurker. Congrats Tertia - you have carried those babes into 2005! HB "come on down!". VV excited for you and Marko!

Cheers
Andrea.

[LauraN]

HAPPY NEW YEAR TERTIA! You did it!

HBs anytime now!

Yes, you will be amazed on how strongly we parents feel about our choices (some of us however are more vocal than others!). You will receive lots of unsolicited assvices, but I am confident that you will do what feels right for you and your babies.

Laura

[Lindsay]

T, darling, delurking first of all to say CONGRATULATIONS on being pregnant in January--you did it! We're all so proud of you and thankful that you've made it to 35+ weeks!

As a nurse, thought I'd quickly throw in my 2 cents re: the cut in question. I didn't have a chance to read all of the comments, but was appalled at the comparison to female circumcision. I've been in the delivery room with a woman who had "female circumcision" and the two are NOTHING alike. With genital mutilation, sex is excruciatingly painful for these women, their clitoris is cut out (and we all know what that'd do for one's ability for sexual fulfillment), etc etc. Circumcised males are able to enjoy a pleasuable, normal sex life. There is no comparison.

Also, while major health organizations are calling circumscision an elective surgery, there are some studies that show links between being uncut and penile cancer. Hygeine, whlie totally doable, is harder with uncut males, too. (Believe me, I've had to clean both uncut and cut males as adults.)

In short, I think that it is completely acceptable to go either way. If God blesses me with a son someday I will elect to cut because I think that it would be horrible to have to go through circumcision as an adult male if it were to become medically necessary and also because I've seen many more cases of infection and cancer with my uncut patients.

But, as others have said, it is YOUR decision, and bravo to you for giving a forum for discussion. Again, congrats on making it to January! Can't wait to hear of Adam and Kate's arrival!

[Allie]

Tertia -

I just wanted to wish you a wonderful 2005 and congratulate you on making it to January! Healthy babies in January! Yahoo!

[karyn]

HBIJ!!!

Yay, Tertia! You have done a fantastic job keeping those babies healthy and cosy.

Happy New Year!

[MistyD]

You did it, HBIJ! Happy New Year! Just think, by this time next year your tiny people will be toddling around, almost ready for their first b-day cake!

[terri c]

Congratulations on reaching this most wonderful milestone. HBIJ!!!

[Aurora]

You did it Tertia...it's January!!!! That's what we've been praying for: healthy babies in January and you did it. I am so proud and happy for you!

HAPPY NEW YEAR!! I am so excited to see your little ones join the world this year. May you have a healthy birth for all involved.

[Ami]

Thought I would weigh in with my point of view which has a slightly different angle than some of the others. As a foremention, I have three boys, all circumsized. We never gave much thought to it - we just both assumed it would be done. Anyway, I am a nurse and have taken care of many elderly patients. Almost always, without fail, when I would come across a bedbound male patient who was uncircumsized, he would have a horrific skin infection underneath the foreskin. I cant count the number of times I had to very delicately (and often painfully for the patient) peel back an infected foreskin (imagine blood and pus here) to cleanse him. The reason this happened in the first place is, admittedly, poor nursing care. Most of these patients came from the nursing home and either the nurses aides were uneducated or unconcerned with proper cleaning of a penis with a foreskin. By the time I had them as a patient in the hospital, it had been a very long time since he was properly cleaned. Very sad, but true. I am not saying I am for you or against you circumsizing your baby. Thats a personal decision for sure. But I just thought I would throw out there that the day may come when they arent the ones cleaning themselves anymore. Not that its reason enough to have that surgery done. I want to also add that when my first one was circumsized (he is 12 now) that damn doctor did not use any numbing medication and I heard my baby screaming down the hall. It was absolutely heart wrenching and the look in his big blue eyes when he came back to my room afterwards is still burned into my mind. Babies DO feel pain!!!! I get unbelievably pissed when I come across a doc that doesnt feel the need to treat an infant's pain, but thats another topic entirely. For our other two boys, we made sure the doctor we chose numbed and they did much better. I dont know the decision I would make now that I am older and wiser, but I am sure that no matter what you guys decide will be just perfect for your baby. After reading here for a while, I am just very happy that you (and Julie too btw!) have a baby that you need to make this decision about. Yay for babies! :)

[Kam]

Did you say 'bare' the consequences?! Good one. (potty jokes get me every time)

Loved the laundry pix, by the by. Made my old heart sing a little. Get some cloth diapers up on that line and it will sing a little more, and maybe even in tune this time.

Happy gestating, and Happy New Year!

[stephanie]

New lurker here, who found the circ debate very interesting. My two cents...gotta go with it being my SO's decision, although I have opinions. He's the one with the closest practical experience. I think letting your hubbie make the ultimate choice is very smart! Congrat on healthy babies! I'll be waiting avidly for their arrival :-)

[Graeme]

I'm a lurker who stumbled across your blog linked in another.

Regarding the circ debate: I'm also South African, living in Joburg, with a two-year-old son (the little bugger pitched up 2 months early and spent a month paralysed and sedated in ICU).

It doesn't seem like circumcision is really done in SA anymore. It was mentioned (unfavourably) once at our ante-natal classes, and no-one in the class was planning on having it done. It was not mentioned by anyone, at any time at the hospital (Park Lane Clinic). Medical aid will almost certainly not cover it - I know Discovery doesn't.

From my point of view, there's no reason to do it. After all, it's *his* penis, not anyone else's. Why take the risks of surgery and anaesthetic, the pain to one's child, and the hassle of care afterward for no reason whatsoever? There's no hassle whatsoever if he's left the way he was born - cleaning is no more difficult than cleaning a finger. Some people claim medical reasons for circumcision - but those are all pretty dubious.

At any rate, congratulations, and good luck!

Graeme

[Jan]

on a lighter note:
http://www.bambinibliss.com/estore/display.
php?RecordID=1095360530

[beth]

Just thought I'd share my decision-making process with regards to this issue.

With my firstborn, I'd left the decision up to my husband, as he was the one with the penis who'd know better. He figured that since he was circ'd, and liked his penis alright, that we should circ our baby as well. But firstborn turned out to be a girl - no circ necessary.

By the time I got pregnant with #2, I'd read a lot of the debates. The most compelling testimony came from intact males who were horrified at the thought of losing their foreskins.

I realized that it didn't matter what I was used to, or preferred, because this wasn't MY penis, and I'm certainly never going to have sex with my son ever, so why should my opinion even come into consideration? Why should my husbands? He doesn't even know what he's missing.

So this time around we decided against the procedure. My official position is that I'm not against circumcision, but that I'm against doing it without consent. It's just something you can never take back.

It turns out that our #2 is a boy, and he is intact. His is the first intact penis that I've seen in person - but it just looks so right to me.

In the end, I believe it's okay to leave the decision to the husband IF said husband has done the research and knows the risks involved, and maybe has even seen the procedure being done before. If he does all that and still wants it done, the next step would be to find a doctor that does the procedure well - and doesn't cut off too much.

[Robert Morgan]

I'm a circumscized guy. I am glad I was circumscized. I was into the hippy scene and had many group nude times. sometimes with hundreds of folks and all but a very few were cut. I've had several women tell 'great, I'm glad you're circumsized" but the same ladies also decided not to circumsize their boy babies and many of the boys decided to get circumsized later in life. Cut/uncut, having a penis is a fun thing to have. Tends to keep your mind busy though. One girl said she loved playing with an uncut penis but when it came to sucking one she likes cut penis better and if just looking at nude men she liked to see the head

[Robert Morgan]

I'm a circumscized guy. I am glad I was circumscized. I was into the hippy scene and had many group nude times. sometimes with hundreds of folks and all but a very few were cut. I've had several women tell 'great, I'm glad you're circumsized" but the same ladies also decided not to circumsize their boy babies and many of the boys decided to get circumsized later in life. Cut/uncut, having a penis is a fun thing to have. Tends to keep your mind busy though. One girl said she loved playing with an uncut penis but when it came to sucking one she likes cut penis better and if just looking at nude men she liked to see the head