Should children be seen and not heard in public?

This is one of those times I ask a question with a slight cringe, anticipating that I might not get the answer I like. But I do want to know your opinion. I might not change my behaviour, but I would still like to know.

Do you think that children should be seen and not heard in public? And when you give me your answer, I would be interested to know whether you have small children, grown children or no children. I am interested to hear how that does (or doesn’t) influence your opinion.

My children are quite loud. Especially the boy child. When he talks, he talks at full volume. It doesn’t worry me at all, but Marko is forever saying “shh, stop making so much noise” when we are out. Marko was brought up very much in the ‘seen and not heard’ way. 

I’ll give you some examples: yesterday I was with the kids at Baby City (a store selling baby goods, not babies, unfortunately. Would be so much more convenient). Anyway, Adam was on the one side of the shop (like an open warehouse kind of place) looking at toys and I was at the other side looking at sippy bottles. So he asks me (in his booming voice) “Mom, can we buy this toy?” and I answer “No” across the room. He says “why not” and I tell him “because it is too expensive”. We are having a conversation across the store. Not shouting, but clearly not whispering.  

I often walk around the shop with both of them in the shopping cart, having long and obviously louder-than-whisper conversations. Again, not shouting or screaming but we sing, and talk and dance and laugh in the shop. I couldn’t care less what other people think. We always have fun when we go out and everything is an adventure. Even going to buy groceries.

Another example: We were having breakfast at a café. It is one of many in a big open air courtyard type thing. Tables outside and a little fountain nearby. The kids normally play around near the fountain and parents and other big people sit at the tables having breakfast. My kids laugh and talk loudly to each other, playing around. NOT screaming and not running around causing havoc, but also not sitting quietly reading a book. I think it is perfectly fine and Marko thinks that they should be quiet. He says that other people don’t want to have to hear them, my point is that it is an open air, casual place and if the other people want peace and quiet, they should go to a grown up place.  I would never take my kids to a grown up restaurant, because when I want a grown up meal, I don’t want kids running around disturbing my meal. But if I go to a casual café, I should expect it will be noisy. I actually don’t like going out to eat with Marko and the kids because he gets so uptight. I am always so stressed that he is going to get stressed if the kids talk loudly etc. Pain! (BTW, I know I have been moaning about him a lot lately, but I do actually love him, very much. Especially at the moment, seeing as he is away on business hehehe!)

I know I am a bit of a soft (ill disciplined?) parent, but my feeling is children are children only once. They are not army interns to be broken down and forced into military like obedience. I do not think they are entitled to run wild and be brats, but if they want to laugh and talk loud, why not. They are children.

I know that some people don’t approve because I do get disapproving looks sometimes. Often from the older generation. But I also get lots of smiles, so I know it doesn’t piss everyone off.

What do you think? So you tell your children to talk softly, sit still and behave or do you let your children laugh and talk freely? Should children be free to be childlike, or should they be seen and not heard when in public?

PS Re Adam's binki / paci / dummy in the last pic – Kate still has one too. Both my kids still have dummies.  They are only supposed to have it for sleeping and in the car.  I said when they were two, I would take it away. That changed to three. It is now four. They might keep them forever.  Told you I am a soft, ill disciplined mother. My children will clearly grow up to be (loud) axe murderers.

Comments

[Sue]

Geez, are you living in our house? I will totally let my kids be kids, and my husband is FOREVER shushing my 5 year old boy. Even in our own house. It drives me crazy! And my hubby has been out of work since January, so the four of us are together pretty much nonstop. And my poor son, who is a very boyish boy-complete with making everything a game, a gun, or some sort of competition that he MUST win or he WILL die, seems to get a lot of guff from my hubby who thinks our life with 2 kids should be quiet and orderly.

Anyhow, as long as my kids are polite, and as long as we're in kid friendly places, I'm okay with a little noise. If I prep my son ahead of time about what is expected, it usually helps. For instance, at the grocery store in an empty aisle I do let him run. He's a kid for Pete's sake- He sees a wide open space and he is sure it was created just for him to play in. BUT, at church we always have to have a talk beforehand that after the service when we're all milling about and the grownups are talking, running around or pulling my hand whining about it being time to go - NOT acceptable. Sneaking three doughnuts while I talk to grownups - perfectly acceptable. Just use a napkin.

[Cath Jenkin]

Children should be heard and seen. End of story.

[Lurker Amy]

Our rule is they can be heard and seen, but not felt. My daughter likes to hug strangers randomly or she will turn around in a restaurant and stroke the next person's head. Unless she is screaming at the top of her lungs, though, we don't shush her.

[cheryl]

i think sue says it right... speaking as a childless person.

i don't have children, by circumstance not choice. i love the children who are in my life, and especially love eating meals with them.

one of the best parts of my week is a saturday morning breakfast at a cafe with a newspaper... i work in a high stress job, and that's my ritual for claiming my life back at the weekend. i have to say that my heart sinks when a family comes and sits next to me and the kids start yelling at each other. it's like fingernails down a blackboard. playing is lovely; quiet conversation and laughter is wonderful... yelling, squealing and squabbling is horrendous... especially children saying 'mum, mum, mum...' at an increasing pitch, while mum ignores them to talk to someone else or read her own paper. kids can and should be kids, but they don't always have to be noisy kids - and when they're in confined spaces i think they need to learn how to respect other peoples' space as well.

why should you be the only one who gets to choose which meals are child free? ... you get to choose to have grown up dinners. i quite like grown up breakfasts as well. which doesn't mean not having kids there. it means that i can have a conversation where i can hear myself think... where i can read a newspaper and understand an article at its end.

i'm all for children being seen heard. i'm also all for them only being heard by those within close earshot...

[Tisha]

T, I have to agree with you. Kids only get to be kids once and they should enjoy it.

Once when watching a movie, a woman actually turned around and shushed my 4 year old daughter for laughing at something in the movie. She should have expected to see kids watching a movie aimed at children!!

[Keri]

I think you are letting your kids be kids, the way they should be. If they were hurting other people or being extremely disruptive, then that's a different story. So keep doing what you are doing...perhaps Marko should stay home so that he doesn't boss the kids to be quiet. =P

Sorry to say this but the dummies have got to GO. They will cry and moan but will get over it. Think of the dental bills you will be paying for the damages that the dummies will do to their teeth...

[Laura]

I dont have any kids and I think without a doubt its perfectly fine and normal for your children to be able to express themselves! Do you ever notice the people that seem to be annoyed by kids (or anyone) are the same people that talk on their cell phones WAY too loud and not really pay attention to whats around them?

Anyway, Im 25 and I still sometimes call across the store to my mom. :)

Your children are SO cute.

[Bianca W]

To me, it sounds like you have a good balance. You are letting them be kids, but also aware that they cannot just be out of control.

I like to think that is how I have it too.

B

[serina]

Your kids are too young to for anyone to expect them to be quiet when you are out on an exciting adventure! Any trip outside the house is an exciting adventure, BTW. When they are older they will act older, and you will notice things like quieter speech, walking slower and holding actual conversations with other people, etc. Put simply, when they are twelve they will act twelve, but right now they are three and they are acting like normal three year olds. My three kids are sixteen and nineteen so we rarely shop together anymore. I wish I could go back to when they were small and loud and full of fun! Like you, I never allowed them to run riot while we were out and they gradually grew into well behaved kids. After they started school they were a pleasure to take anywhere.

[mandi]

I think there is a difference between talking and loud talking. I think that parents need to work on teaching that difference to their children. In a grocery store, not such a big deal, since if you are annoying someone, they can walk away. In a resturant, they should talk quieter. Why should people who don't have kids with them have to get up and leave because your kids are being loud? I don't have kids, but I have neices and nephews that age, so I know the volume of little boys voices at that age lol. Not saying that they actually will talk quieter, but it should be taught and actively worked on at this age.

[Woody's Girl]

It sounds to me like you have struck a good balance. The problem I encounter a lot in public (in the US) are children who are TOTALLY uncivilized - running wild, being loud and sassy - and parents who seem too meek to get their offspring under control. I think maybe it's a PC thing here, very laissez faire parenting style?

I, for one, believe in children being able to enjoy themselves (at home, and in public) WITHOUT being obnoxious.

FWIW, my girls are 4.5, 5 and 7... and we can/do often take them to "adult" restaurants, because we can (usually!) rely on them to behave appropriately. :)

[Jennifer]

That's a tough one. My two are 2yrs and 4mos old. When we go to a restaurant, we go prepared that if anyone really freaks out, we will get our food to-go and leave. However, normal conversation, accidental spills, etc. are ok in my book. If the restaurant is empty, I will even let the 2yo walk around with me or my husband to blow off steam. Same with stores. If the store is relatively empty, I will let her walk around. If it is full and she can run into people, I will require her to stay in the cart.

[Leslie]

My kids are older - 13, 16 & 18. We have always felt that it's not reasonable to expect young children to act like little adults. I didn't permit them to yell and run in a settling like the outdoors restaurant you describe but to play and chatter seems normal to me. We did emphasize "library voices" - for those places and situations where they needed to be quiet. And I agree with you about not taking small children to adult restaurants - not fair to anyone. That said, kids don't learn how to behave in public without being out in public and I don't believe they need to whisper in all circumstances either. It's a balancing act like much of parenting.

[Lila]

I have mixed feelings on that issue. My four children are between the ages of 18 and nine, so we had our share of noise. But both my husband and I are quiet people and don't like to raise our voices. So from the outset, the tone in our house was more to the quiet side. I don't like calling from one part to the other of the house and taught the children from a young age, if you have to say anything to say, come here and say it in a normal voice, don't shout. It's just the way I like it. Besides, it's easier for the children to have basic manners (and the don't shout thing is for me a part of basic manners) before they are confronted with the rest of the world.

I love children and in public places, children's noise does not disturb me. But I differ between normal children noise, the sound of happy or unhappy children, and obnoxious whining or attention seeking noise. I sometimes feel that parents don't set the limits where I would have put them. (I admit I also don't like to see kindergarten age children with bottles, dummies or sippy cups....)

But I'm not judgmental about young mothers, I know how hard it is and that we all need every help we get. so I don't give poisonous looks to an exhausted young mother, this would only aggravate her more and it's not helpful. And we all know how children misbehave when they feel the pressure on their parents. I prefer to smile because such situations happen and who am I to judge?

But in principle, I don't think children have to make unrestricted noise in order to have a happy childhood. I think education and learning how to be a considerate member of society is part of childhood, too. One of my main goals in education is to make my children considerate, empathic and nice people. This is something they have to learn, and I have to teach them. I prefer to teach using love and good example instead of strict disciplinary measures, but I do believe in teaching and setting clear limits. Not disturbing others through unnecessary noise is one of these limits.

I'm sorry for this unpopular minority opinion.

I have to add that I raise my children on an Israeli kibbutz, and you can hardly imagine a more child-friendly and child centered environment. Children move freely here and are respected from young age as individual members of our little community. The atmosphere here is really ideal for children. It's easy to educate children in such a supportive and child friendly community.

Still, I'm sensitive to noise and I'm glad my children are not noisy, too. Most of the time anyway ;-)

[Megan]

Tough one. My children were taught that there are different behaviours appropriate for different places. The two oldest went to adult restaurants quite young because they were quite capable of sitting still and speaking quietly. They also knew VERY early not to interrupt an adult unless it was very important (simply a pet peeve of mine, not comment on anyone else's choice in this - and naturally the definition of "important" changed with age!). The youngest (boy) was much more restless so we didn't impose restaurants on him or him on them.

Voices were generally soft in stores and other public places but how much of that is because I'm a relatively quiet person who would rather not draw attention? Not sure. Running, howling, demanding treats etc were never on but we always had a game going (I spy etc) which was WHY there was not running etc. Sounds to me as though you have a relatively good compromise but as Marko proves it's a compromise that has a different comfort zone for each person!

[RainbowW]

try and keep your kids quiet in public.

go ahead.

i dare you.

[BA]

I definately don't think children should be seen and not heard. How else are they going to learn social skills if they aren't allowed to participate in public places? That being said, when they are outside - that's a great time to run around and be loud. If I'm in a store, I try to have my son use his "inside voice" (I hate those words). If other people don't like it, they can bite me :)

[Ashley]

I have 20-month-old b/g twins (and another little boy on the way).

It's difficult to come up with a hard-and-fast rule, because every place we take them to is different; I try to be consistent, though, regardless of the ambient noise level, because I'm guessing my kiddos aren't quite as aware of whom they're bothering as I might be. I err on the side of being quieter in restaurants (I mean, just because the place is cheaper, outdoors, etc. doesn't mean someone hasn't been saving up for weeks or months to take their spouse, parent, child, etc. there for a special occasion, and I don't want to be the one to wreck it for them).

I don't take them to fancy-pants restaurants, but if I'm out somewhere and they're being loud enough to disturb others, I work on trying to get them to quiet down. The other day we were at a somewhat-upscale (although not fancy) brewery for lunch, and my son decided that screaming would be fun. He got two time-outs in the corner of the restaurant (I planted his feet, hovered his bottom about three inches above the floor, and held him there for about thirty seconds), and that solved the problem). It was *very* loud in there and there were other kids and, frankly, the screaming probably didn't bother others--but I didn't want him thinking that that was OK or fun. If it continued, I would have removed him from the restaurant.

When I brought them to the outdoor fountain in the park? Yep, they were screaming and running around like little fools. It was fantastic. Grocery store? We sing, dance, and act like goofballs, although we don't shout.

So while I agree that kids will be kids, I also think it's ultimately in *their* best interest to do my best to model and teach them polite behaviors in various settings. That said, hahahahahaha--I think the key there is "do my best."

[Shandra]

Context is everything. I have one son, almost 3 yrs old.

Shopping is not a place one is guaranteed silence. There is no guarantee of never being bothered while out in public. I was once in a store behind a slow senior and people behind me were huffing! Come on, we all live together, and there is no law that you can never be inconvenienced.

However I do think the process of socialization is important. We use the phrase "indoor voices" and "outdoor voices" to remind my son, but he does need the reminders. I don't like shushing myself, I find it a rude noise.

I think the middle-range places like the coffee shop patio are a tough call. This is my personal approach. I do not think that "time out" is "time to relax" for parents if the kids are along. I get a little frustrated (if sympathetic) when I see parents leaving their kids alone so that they can read the paper or ignoring wriggly behaviour. If the parents are engaged with the kids and working with them, then I think a little wriggling and noise is okay.

But for us if my son is getting to where he needs to really play down off the table, it's time to go. We do a lot of picnics right now with take-out. It's just more fun for everyone that way. I prefer to set us all up for success. About once a month when he's had a good time outdoors and we're all in harmony, then we go out for a "practice" sit-down meal, so he learns. But if we just want to have fun, at THIS age, we just create conditions for fun.

For your differences with Marko though here is what I really think. He is the kids' father and he gets some say in how they are raised as well. You can gather information about norms for him, but if it is an issue for him then it truly is. He is not necessarily going to miraculously get over the embarrassment and feel fine with the loudness.

So... I think you need to let him work it out with the kids, and probably a good way to do that is to let the three of them go out on their own enough that he and they work it out however they are going to work it out.

[margalit]

My twins are now teenagers, and they are still LOUD. I mean really really loud. I'm constantly saying "I'm right here, why are you yelling?" when they're talking to me. With that in mind, I think that it's gonna be hard to find an answer to your question because it's a cultural thing. In the USA, kids are loud and the seen, not heard thing is long long gone. In fact, I think it's a couple of generations gone. I've never heard anyone say that about either my generation (I'm mid 50's) or my kids generation.

Like other's we have tried the 'inside' voice approach, which worked, but it wouldn't appease Marko. He just has a different view of parenting than you do, and he's uptight about deviating from how he was apparently raised. Kids DO make noise, they do have fun running around and chasing each other, and as long as they are not DISRUPTING anyone, then it's fine. And disrupting is different than disturbing. Many people are disturbed to know that children exist. No matter how well behaved your kids are, they hate them. So you can't go by the sour looks of the elderly, who have forgotten what it was like to have young kids.

[Chickenpig]

Well, there is a middle ground between being "seen but not heard", and that is heard, but not quite so loud. Learning to control your volume in public is an important social skill, and one that is developed later in children with sensory issues, such as autism. I have a blast shopping with my kids, too, and I do have one that starts to get very excited and wants to shout. A well placed "I can hear you, please use your indoor voice" when your child is 2.5 or older is perfectly appropriate. However, expecting a child that young to be quiet in a busy cafe is impossible and shouldn't be expected anyway. Which is exactly why my husband and I only take our kids to family restaurants, too. I totally believe in kids being kids, but we don't just wake up as 18 year olds with a set of social skills neatly in place, we have to be taught. So unless you want grown kids who have no manners and are annoying in public and embarrass their spouses, a little training won't hurt. After all, as parents we are our children's first, and most important, teachers.

[blackbird]

The dentist will make you ditch those dummies. You'll have no choice.
As for noise in public I'd say you are doing okay. The stores are always loud and if they aren't screaming I wouldn't have a problem with the cafe either.
I think the key is where they are when they are loud and you got it right when you said you wouldn't bring them to a place for grown-up dinner.
My three boys are grown.

[Megan]

I think it really depends on the situation. In both those places you described, it's not a big deal really, as long as they're not, as you've pointed out, screaming or causing a huge ruckus. However, yesterday at 5:30, I was on a packed train with a four year old who thought squealing and yelling was appropriate and her mom just laughed. I'm sorry, but after eight hours of work, I don't really want to listen to a screaming kid. Sure, she would have been cute in a park or even in a store where I was trapped beside her for a full hour, but there is a time and a place for different behavior, which is an important lesson for kids so they don't go to work dressed for a nightclub. ;-)
And I don't have kids yet. I do, however, have three rowdy neices who I practically live with. :-)

[Susan]

I am a not a parent yet, but I am a teacher of young children and do believe kids can be seen and heard as long as it is in a respectful manner to the people around. If kids are screaming in a resturant or store and it is very obvious that it is bothering the people in the store then yes they need to be reminded to be quiet. I just always think of kids even though they are just kids that they are the adults of the future. Starting to give them the social skills early that they will need when they get older is important. Adam and Kate are sooo cute and I am sure they are not too crazy in public. I think men get overly nervous sometimes about bother others in public because they arent always necessarily around to see all the outings.

[polly]

I haven't read the comments but I'll tell you what i think. Children are children. They are not always quiet. They are cute and often noisy. I have no problem with this and don't believe the 'seen and not heard' thing. I think a lot depends on the situation. A child speaking happily but loudly is one thing, a child screaming like a banshee is another. i was at the local coffee shop on Sunday afternoon having my relaxing "down time" sans baby when a family came in w/ 2 adorable little boys, the older one was a true rascal in the shop, screaming, running around, etc. if my child had started to act like that in a coffee shop (which should be reasonably quiet) I would take him out and we'd either sit at the tables outside (it was not hot and they were shielded by the sun) or we'd take a walk to get a bit of energy out.

It's very situation dependent. But in general no, I think children will be children and I enjoy the sweet sounds of kids--even the louder ones--most of the time!