To nap or not to nap, that is the question..

Ok, we haven’t done this for a while, and I know you really want to: I need me some assvice.

Should I, or should I not give up our midday naps?

The Background:

The get home from school at 12:30, have lunch and then I put them down for a nap at 1. They fall asleep almost straight away and have a good, deep sleep until about 2:10 from which time we start waking them up. Waking them up can take anywhere between 10 minutes (Kate) and 30 minutes (Adam). They seem to LOVE their midday nap and it is a real battle to get them up.

The Problem:

They are simply NOT tired when it comes to bed time at night. It takes me forever to get them to go to sleep. The last two nights Kate has only gone to sleep at 9:30!!! That is too late. Oh, they wake up at about 7 – 7:30 am.

The Routine:

5:45 Supper

6:10-6:45 Bath

6:45 – 7:30 Watch TV and have some milk out of a cup. OK, A BOTTLE.

7:30-8:00 They are allowed to play in their room for 30 minutes, which they do

8:00 Wees and into bed.

8:15 Someone needs a poo

8:20 Someone else needs a wee

8:30 Someone needs to tell me something URGENTLY

8:45 I threaten to call their father if they don’t go to sleep THIS VERY MINUTE

8:50 I threaten to call their father if they don’t go to sleep THIS VERY MINUTE

9:00 I threaten to call their father if they don’t go to sleep THIS VERY MINUTE

9:01 Eventually their father hears (he is watching TV in the lounge, I am on the computer two doors down from their room) and shouts at them to go to bed, which they do. He then moans at me and says “this shit at night has got to stop”. Sometimes, depending on my mood, I swear at him inside my head. Other times I just have another sip of my wine and pretend I can’t hear him.

Arguments for giving up the nap:

• See above

Arguments for keeping the nap:

• They are really tired when they get home from school (although they do seem to catch a second wind pretty soon)
• I LOVE LOVE LOVE having a break from them during weekends and when I am around.
• Don’t preschoolers need to nap?

Help! I am almost scared to give up the day time nap because once its gone, its gone and I do so love that little break. Poll to follow….

Actually, rereading what I've just written, plus watching the video, I realize the real problem is that I am a total pushover and an asshole and I need to get much firmer about going to bed.  Rats! But ok, lets assume I am going to get stricter, do you think the nap should stay or go?

PS Please don't be fooled by their acquiescence in this video, they were back to tell me something 5 minutes later (if you can't see the video yet, come back in a while, it says it is still processing, whatever that means)

Comments

[beck]

What about some quiet, down-time instead of a nap after school? Maybe ease into the down-time as you ease out of the time they sleep?
But what do I know of preschoolers. I have just one 14-month old who's recently decided to not go to sleep at bedtime, too.

[Sassy]

I'd replace the nap with quiet play time in their room and leave that out at night. So instead of supper, bath, milk, play and bed it's just supper, bath, milk and bed. That way instead of bedtime interrupting their play, it happens when they finish their milk and they'll probably be less wound up.

My other suggestion would be to replace playtime with story time. That's what we did with a five year old foster kid and it worked really well. End of the book = bed time. It's easy for them to understand. Also, it was my husband who read the book every night giving me 10 minutes of me time before I went in and said goodnight.

[CathyY]

Hmmm. If they fall asleep that quickly for nap, I say they still need it (based on my own 3-year-old). I'd first adjust the evening routine... instead of TV, I recommend play (wears them out more; less passive). Make that Marko's time w/them - have him tickle/dance/chase/roughhouse with them a bit - it's a good Daddy thing. Then bath, books, bed. Bath and books help them wind down, play does the opposite.

[Zerch]

My son just turned 3 a few weeks ago and takes an almost 1.5 hour nap each day. We're up early at 6:30, lunch at noon and then he goes down for a nap at 1:00, dinner at 6:30, play a little, then at 7:17, he goes to potty while I'm running his tubby, he plays in there for a while, then when he gets out we brush teeth, get in pjs, go downstairs and Daddy reads a couple of stories in family room then tickles, then we immediately go upstairs, read a few more stories, sing a song, say our prayers and I turn on his music and he falls asleep.

Now, I'd like to add that we just adopted this child about a month ago, so this is a brand new routine for him (he previously didn't go to bed until after 10:00 pm and also woke up pretty late). And I'd also like to add that sometimes we run late, or sometimes he doesn't go so easily. But, given that I'm a brand new first time mom to a 3 year old, I'm keeping the mid-day naps for as long as it takes for me to get used to this crazy new life!!! I say keep the naps, and figure out a nighttime routine that will encourage winding-down. Good luck!

[Zerch]

okay - I meant 7:15, not 7:17 !!!!!!! Geesh, talk about a schedule nazi!

[Anna]

Hi Tertia.
I think you should not make them skip the nap. (1) It seems your children have a good routine down, don't mess with it. (2) If they need the nap it means they are tired, so if they skipped it they would be really cranky in the afternoon. (3) They are getting 11 hours of sleep every night, which is enough. (4) 9:30 pm is not that late to go to bed. (5) Finally, from personal experience: I tried to make Julia skip the nap when she was 2- it did not work at all and her pediatrician told me that while he can advise parents to set fixed wake-up and night sleep times, he never recommends messing with naps.
What works better for me is to wake Julia (now almost 3) up a little bit earlier in the morning (she still comes from a night's sleep, so she won't be cranky). ciao

[Tripsmom]

My Triplets are 3.5 years old and EXACTLY the same. Your evening sounds just like mine - even hubby's comments. I prefer the nap (me-time) and I also find that they do go down better at night as they are not over tired. I think the solution is that we drink more wine and let the dads put the kids to bed!

[Carla Hinkle]

I'm going to buck the trend and say skip the nap ... I traded afternoon naps for a much earlier bedtime and it is great. We do an afternoon quiet time, my daughter laying down on my bed and watching TV for an hour or so that gets me my break. But 7:30 bedtime is *Heaven*.

[Sheridan]

I vote to keep the nap, but the bedtime routine should change.

Sleeping for about 1.5 hrs at lunchtime shouldn't affect their night time sleep that much (just my opinion). Henry is just 3 months younger than your two and I still get a good 2-3 hours out of him during the day.

But I do think your bedtime routine needs help. I will second the earlier commenters that bath, books, bed is a winner combination. I think they are probably getting too worked up with the TV and playtime.

And even if you are a pushover, there's not much to argue about if it's bath, books, bed! Easy for you - no deviation allowed!

We got the wee/poo thing too for a while there but it seems to have lost his novelty once I decided he was having too much fun getting out of bed and going to the toilet. I started to make him do it in the dark, or just a dim light. With no talking. All of a sudden it wasn't fun anymore and he goes before he gets into bed. (But I am a very mean and harsh mother).

In my opinion? At this age they should be in bed, alone, by 7:30pm, which seems to fit in with your routine if you do books straight after bath.

Good luck!

[auburn]

My assvice comes not as a parent (kid is only 4 months...and he his a horrid sleeper so on second thought don't listen to me at all). But as a former nanny I will say, cut out playtime and tv time at night. Especially the tv. TV and play both ramp up the mind, replace with some quite, soothing music and a few books. Leave the playing and tv for earlier in the day.

[gkk]

Asking for assvice? Can't let this oppourtunity pass! I personally would keep the nap and tweak the bedtime routine if possible. Reading it, the two things which jump out at me are the TV (not great for winding down) and the free time. Can you change things around so the TV and play come before bath and once it is bath time the are on a strict path to bed? No passing go, no collecting $200. With my little terrors, the routine is pack-away, dinner, bath, story and bed. When DH is in charge there is 5 minutes "play" inserted between every step and it always ends in tears. I think as soon as you give them any wriggle room you're a goner. Once it is bath time my kids know there is no more free time and that is it. No discussion entered into!

[Mizasiwa]

im on the keep the nap crew - my son is just over two and if he doesnt do the day time nap he is killer!!! honestly we tried becouse we also had a bad time getting him to sleep at night thinking that would work and it worked - in reverse!!! what did work and im not sure how keen marko would be is that he (normally takes just one night at least it did in our house) put them to bed and you stay our of it (like a complete role reversal) angel boy really took to this and he listened! We got to keep the day nap which is a godsend on the weekend as you said and he goes to sleep at 6.30 plays a little and at 7.00 when we go in he climbs into bed for bedtime (this isnt crystal obviously but the change of routine person really worked for us)
good luck

[Ninnibeth]

I think they're tired after school cause they haven't slept well (too few hours) at night, not because they need a nap...
And let your hubby take over the bed-time routine since they will obey him so painlessly; why should you stress & threaten when all he has to do is growl?

[Elaine]

My little one stopped daytime naps at 2. He would not go to sleep in the evening and eventually, after many dreadful attempts, I saw a fab paediatrician who is an absolute expert in child behaviours and he told me that maybe my boy wasn't needing his daytime sleeps anymore and to give them up. At two!

I hated the thought of this, but found that after a week, he would go to bed much easier. Of course, he still got really tired during the day, but we just pushed through.

He still goes at full throttle during the day and has never been big on sleeping, but now at night - he goes for about 11-12 hours.

I reckon you should try it and see for yourself. It is hard, but worth the results.

[Adi]

Oh, the afternoon nap (blissful, faraway look on face...). If I could nap for two hours every day, around lunch, I would be very productive. Yes, I would go to bed around midnight only, to be up at 6 or so again, but I so need it. And the corporate world just don't cater for it.

Have you ever thought of keeping the naps, but letting your kids play (you know, quietly, like I'm sure they always do) in their bedrooms until they get tired and fall over, whenever that may be? And then, you force them to get up in the mornings, at the time they are suppose to (even if you have to get them dressed with floppy, sleepy arms and hold them up on the toilet...). So, their routine is only guided by the time they HAVE to get up, but the rest then falls in place as they are tired, etc. Pls don't hate me for all this assvice, but working with autistic kids are challenging every preconceived idea I have ever had - and going to bed at a certain time is one of them. It is important to note that the reason they have to go to bed early is because you have to go to bed early to get up early and NOT have a lunchtime nap. So, we, as social beings and rightly so, shape the people's lives around us to fit in to our own preferences. If they know that the one reason they are allowed a lunch nap and a late night is because they are going to quietly play in their own rooms until late, won't they do this?

Ok, I'm laughing at my own post now, because NO of course they won't. Ok, assvice #2: Get Marko to put them to bed while you sip some wine. Make it his job, damnit... :)

[Lindsey]

We Just went through this and ava was born the March after your kids' January ---- ditch the nap and they'll be asleep by 8. It's a beautiful thing. Why did it take months for me to figure it out???

[Cat]

I wish mine would still nap! At 3 and a bit she only naps about 3 times a week - and that is utter bliss. What I have noticed - SURPRISE! is the days that she naps, she sleeps better at night and wakes up in a much better mood. Our routine is as follows: Bath at 6:30 (TV only untill then if at all), then wind down time - read a book while we bathe the twins and put them to bed, dinner with the family at around 7:15 to 7:45, straight to bed after that. We have a routine of toilet, brushing teeth, storey, prayer and song and goodnights. Most nights she falls asleep almost immediately. Other nights she will sing/talk to herself and fall asleep. Very seldom do we get called to her room. If we slip only 15 minutes later I can't get her up in the mornings. I have also found that if she is too tired (ie no nap, to bed too late), she struggles to fall asleep. I don;t think the nap is too much sleep, I think they might be over tired and sleep too little.

[Julia]

Keep the nap. The fact that they fall asleep quickly and deeply means that they still need it. Tweak the bedtime routine slightly. Quiet time and/or books. No playtime and/or TV at night as they will struggle to settle down for bed.

[Amy]

I read once that watching TV upsets our circadian rhythms - our bodies interpret it as sunlight or somesuch. So, maybe if you took away the evening TV and replaced it with a book or whatever, it would help.

I am completely talking out my ass, here. Sleep is a big, bad issue in our house.

The other reason why this doesn't make sense is that it's currently light until about 8:45 pm here, and by midsummer it'll be light until 10 pm or so. I don't care what rhythm they're in, my kids are not staying up that late. Grrr...

Don't get me started about Daylight Savings. Ugh.

Amy @ http://prettybabies.blogspot.com

[Jennifer]

Go with your instinct. Keep the nap.

I am slightly confused as to why they must be in bed at 8pm. If they consistently get up, maybe they should be put to bed at a later time? Or allowed to look at books?

I have mixed feelings about the bedtime with my son. He is three. He has a two-hour nap everyday and I let him sleep three if he wants to on weekends. If I put him to bed before 8.30 he will wake up at 5.30/6. So I am slowly pushing back his bedtime. He now goes to bed at 9. (Quiet time starting at 8, story time at 8.30, into bed by 9) and he will go right to sleep and not wake before six, usually around seven. That's a nine/ten-hour night plus the two-hour nap. 11/12 hours sleep in a 24-hour period is plenty, I think.

When I put him to bed before then the poor child would lie awake in his room for up to an hour, quietly, because he knew if he called me I would tell him to put his head down and go to sleep!

So maybe try that?

[Andrea]

If they are tired during the day, I think they still need the nap. And I don't blame you for not wanting to give it up! And a 1-hour nap is not too long for 3-year-olds. I agree with what you surmised - the nighttime problem is not lack of tiredness, but lack of firmness. They don't think you mean business at 8 p.m. You know this, but the first few days/weeks of new firmness is hard and frustrating, but they will get used to the new rule that 8 p.m bedtime REALLY means 8 p.m. bedtime. After some tearful nights where you don't allow them to get up, they will get over it, and go to sleep right away.

[Em]

I say half and half. It sounds like Kate maybe ready but Adam may not necessarily be. It stinks to have them on two seperate schedules I'm sure but it might be where they are today. Kate gets up from her nap easily and won't go back down at night. Not to say Adam is an angel at night but if his sister is still in play mode, I'm sure that doesn't help his bedtime routine.

My daughter gave up her nap when she was 2 but my older son napped until he was almost 4 (and still will if we happen to be in the car). Not that it is definetly a boy/girl difference but it may be an individual difference.

Good Luck!

[Darya Klyukin]

Assvice: Do not give up nap! Nap is important unless you want pissed off kids in the evening with meltdown of titanic proportions. I miss nap. Someone has suggested tweaking the routine and I agree. The best thing in my opinion is to move the tv time and play time before bath then after a nice soak read them a couple of books (set a limit and never go over) and off to lala land. It might take a week to stick and you need to be firm in that week letting them get up only for bathroom breaks. If the kids actually do poop at 8 then giving up nap and putting them down earlier might result in accidents or in pissed of sleepy kids waking up to go to the bathroom. Do i make any sense? Take it from someone who did away with nap (we took away the binky and nap vanished) that extra free time in the day is very much missed, think of yourself think of Rose, think of the baby kangaroos :)
Love,
D

[Woody's Girl]

It seems like most of your commenters thus far are advocating KEEPING the nap(s). I personally had an experience like yours - daughter who was clearly tired, so was given naps, but then a BEAR at bedtime. It wasn't that she wouldn't COOPERATE, but bedtime (er, the actual "falling asleep" part) was SUCH a struggle! We were frustrated, shouting, she'd be in tears...

So, with that experience in my past, I need to offer my very best advice: STOP THE NAPS. As counter-intuitive as it may seem, I think A&K will do much better if they have one, long, solid sleep each day. What I hear from your post is that they are tired when they get home from school (understandable!), but then not allowed to fully recharge with a nap (BIG CLUE: you are having to WAKE THEM UP). You're shooting yourself in the foot at bedtime, yet they are not REALLY getting all the rest their bodies need.

My girls are now 4, 5 and 7... EVERY ONE OF THEM would go down for a nap most days, and would enjoy it, but it would totally wreak havoc on bedtime - just as you are experiencing. If you want them going to bed before 8AM, I highly recommend that you doing quiet "restful" activities after school, rather than a nap. They will be cranky, perhaps, for a couple of weeks as their bodies adjust to having to wait until bedtime to sleep. But then... THEN... bedtime can be cheerfully anticipated, and quickly embraced by A&K! You'll see!

P.S. I often have to work very hard to keep my 4-yr old from falling asleep if we are running errands after lunchtime. I've learned the hard way that ANY nap (even 5 minutes!) will set us back at bedtime. And it is NOT due to her being uncooperative, or deliberately trying to avoid going to bed. It's as if the nap re-sets her body clock, making it think she needs to wait longer until the next sleep.

[Shandra]

I agree with commenters about the TV and playtime.

But to go a little further on it - what strikes me in your routine is that there is not a lot of connection time there. Quite often at the end of the day young kids need some time to feel warm and safe and "nested" and your routine from the way you posted it kind of reads like "put kids in front of tv," "put kids in room alone," "come in and enforce bathroom time," "leave."

I'm guessing this is partly because they're twins and so it's hard to have quiet time with each one, but I know that my son really depends on snuggling together and reading for 15 minutes as "contact time" with us. This may mean your husband has to get involved so that each child has a parent.

I recommend "Sleepless in America" highly for a discussion of sleep that's well-rounded, and it brings up this issue of reconnecting before transitioning to sleep. She would also be highly in favour of keeping the nap. :)