Is there a role for the Parenting Police after all?

So, I’ve been thinking about this whole Parenting Police thing. About whether or not it has a legitimate role in our society. Whether it is harmful or helpful. Is it about the children, or is it about us and the choices we’ve made. Has it always been like this or is this a modern phenomenon, if so why? What is it like in your country?

Do we have a moral / social / civic obligation to police the parenting of others, or is it our right to raise our children as we see fit? 

When we offer our advice or opinion, are we interfering or are we helping? Are we doing it to help the child, to inform the uniformed parent, or are we doing it to validate our own parenting choices? 

When you see an example of parenting that you think could potentially be harmful to a child, should you say something? And how do we define harmful? Your ‘harmful’ might be my ‘perfectly acceptable’. Cultural, religious, societal differences all come into play. Besides the unequivocal examples of rape and murder, are there any absolute truths that cross all divides? 

There is inherent danger in everything we do. There is danger in sleeping (back to sleep campaign), in eating (obesity vs GM foods vs organic vs dieting vs a total minefield), in how we discipline our children, in schooling, bathing, riding bikes, breathing. Where do you draw the line? If you know I don’t sit in the bathroom ALL THE TIME while my kids bathe, and you know that the Department of Bathing has said that children can drown in the bath, should you warn me? Help me? Advise me? Police me? If you see my children ride their bikes without helmets, and in your country helmets are law, should you point it out to me? If I see you out with your severely overweight children, should I mention the obesity epidemic and warn you of the dangers of childhood obesity? How far do we go? Is it my right to intervene, or is it none of my damn business?

What do you think? Is there a role for the Parenting Police, and when is it appropriate, if ever, to police the parenting of others?

(And by ‘Parenting Police’, I am talking everything from giving your opinion or advice, to calling social services for a real or imagined infraction)

Comments

[Jillian]

Utlimately I have to vote for clear and present danger. That's a simple answer, though, to a terribly complicated question. Since having my son I find my desire to protect all children has ramped up into overdrive. Yet I am not qualified to decide who needs to be corrected. But there are circumstances in which I feel so torn.

On the subway the other day a woman was hysterically screaming at her pre-teen son, and even took several serious-looking swipes at him. He was as big as she was. It was obvious she couldn't beat him up, or really even do him any serious physical damage. They weren't speaking in English, so I don't know what it was all about. For all I know he had just set his little brother on fire.

I didn't say anything. I didn't know what to say. And, honestly, I was a little bit afraid of her. But I still think about him and feel guilty that I didn't make a move to protect him. Then again, if I had maybe it would have just put in line for more trouble after I was safely home -- satisfying my anxiety but making his situation worse. I just can't seem to find the line.

For what it's worth, I don't think your kids dinking along helmet-less on training wheels is anywhere close to being anyone else's concern.

[Chicago]

Seeing as I just told you on Facebook that I am NOT a member of the Mommy Police, I find it rich that I am now the first one commenting here.

I think that if a realtionship exists, and in the case of your blog I'm sure I am not alone in feeling like I do have a relationship of sorts with you, and you think it's a matter of danger, then commenting is OK as long as it is done extremely kindly and is couched in all kinds of "I'm sure you are a wonderful mother" language. For example, I find that many first time parents do not realize that a five-point restraint on an infant car seat/baby carrier is supposed to be buckled practically right up to the baby's chin. I have pointed this out to several friends who have been extremely grateful for this bit of advice having not known it before. But I think it was only possible because of the delivery ("I know you want the best for Junior and so many parents don't even realize with all this being so new yada yada yada") and because I've only ever said it to people I know really well.

I agree 100% that the helmet stuff was not that serious and it really did rain on your parade. But, because these are your first bike riders, there's a chance that many of your readers thought you may genuinely not realize how important helmets are and thought, only out of the goodness of their hearts, that maybe they should say something. Now, once one person says something, I don't know why 100 more need to say it, too, but it is what it is.

I agree with commentors on prior posts -- you hear "bad mommy" when no one is really say it. I get that because I hear it a lot, too. You are a wonderful mother, top tier all the way!

I absolutely love your blog, can't live without it, and I love the way you put yourself out here and share your family for all of us to love!

[kristylynne]

There was an interesting case here in the U.S. recently, in which a woman was arrested for leaving her toddler asleep in the carseat, inside a parked car, while she walked a few yards away with her other children, I believe to make a donation to charity outside a store. The car was never out of her sight and the doors were locked, if I recall correctly. The charges were eventually dropped, but it caused quite an uproar. I think that's a good example of parenting police gone awry.

I do think that if I saw a sleeping child in a car with all the windows up, my first response would be alarm. I might even call the cops if I didn't see the mother nearby. But in this case, the police should have left the mom alone once they realized that the baby wasn't in danger.

I guess what I mean to say is, if a child is in imminent danger, such as in child abuse situation, it's all adults' responsibility to speak up, and get help. If a child is in danger of having his/her toes pinched by a bike, I don't think it's nearly as big of a deal. I survived my childhood largely unsupervised, barefoot, without helmets of any kind or even sunscreen. I have very fond memories of how free I felt as a child. I think that makes me somewhat more liberal with my own son.

So bottom line: outside of child abuse and neglect situations, it's up to the parents, who know their children best, to decide how much protection they need.

[Andria]

Great post. You know, everyone parents differently. And, it's hard to see others not doing what we are so steadfast in doing. For example, I co-slept with my parents, whereas my hubby was put in his bed for 12 hours out of the day. We have EXTREME differences in parenting, based on what our parents did with us. It's a big fight, and I am criticized by his sister because of what I do with my kids, but by God, I am not a bad mother because I breastfeed and co-sleep.

[Jen]

I voted for only for clear and present danger. But I do think that goes a little below rape and murder too. For example, I would say something if I saw a kid without a seatbelt. And I did turn in a parent at my daycare that didn't change her kid's diaper overnight (it was the same diaper I put on her the day before) and showed up smelling of alcohol. But things like helmets on bikes...that's a grey area. For the record, I thought your kids were absolutely fine. Helmets didn't even cross my mind in that picture. :)

[Cricket]

They say, "It takes a village," but I think not. I was raised by someone who is/was/will be always in someone else's business, so I am particularly sensitive to it.

[Wyliekat]

Clear and present danger was my vote, too. Though I realize that all that does is open up the slippery slope (boy, that sounds all wrong) of interpretation. Someone might have thought that your children were in clear and present danger by riding without helmets. Ditto with the bath thing.

HOWEVER - there are a couple of other factors here.

One - anyone who has spent any time reading here must realize that you're a parent who's taken the time to educate yourself. Give credit where credit is due and don't assume the stupidity of your audience, nor the superiority of your own knowledge. If the parent is at least a quasi-known quantity, it's reasonable to assume they're reasonable.

Two - the intarweb. People spend time and energy trying to find ways to kick others. This is doubly true if you're someone who is in this grey-area of celebrity that appears to be growing around bloggers. You're a mark. You're a mark because of the fact that it's the internet and you are who you are.

So if I saw someone physically abusing their child, or leaving them with someone who is a pedophile or a child simply in danger due to a parent's attention having strayed, I'd intervene if I was in a place to do so.

Other than that, I'm going to go ahead and assume that most parents love their children and are doing their best by them.

[Lila]

I once saw the husband of a friend of mine driving with their baby on his lap. I was shocked and I told her. I hate to meddle but I had to. It turned out she didn't know and she was thankful I had told her. If anything had, Heaven forbid, happened... I would have felt bad for the rest of my life for not saying anything. It was difficult.

But usually I shut my mouth. I know how hard it is to be a parent and how much criticism and comments we get anyway - I live in Israel and the country is full of sweet old ladies who will comment on whether or not your child should have a sun hat, or socks, or whatever. The plus side is that they will comment on nice things, too, and help when needed, and say a blessing.

So after receiving that kind of unwarranted advice from all sides for quite a number of years, I feel wary to put other through the same mill. When I see nervous mothers with crying children in the supermarket, I try to give them an understanding smile - not a judging one. It can be so difficult. And to the young mothers in my surroundings I say only positive things, on principle. It is really their business how they raise their kids. They do their best, just like I did.

But of course: where there is real danger for the child, I will say something. And if necessary, also act.

[Jenn]

Another vote for clear and present danger.

I also believe that a person's method of delivery is a good indicator of motive. Calling you out about helmets in the public forum of your comments section shows, in my opinion, a motive beyond a genuine concern and desire to help.

[Jessica]

Really, it depends on the situation.

An "acquaintence" of mine (and I use that term very loosely) used to drive her kids to school, drunk. When the school administrator's were asked why nothing was done, they said they aware of it but didn't want to "rock the boat". ROCK THE BOAT? WTF?

If it's minor, say something- if you feel you are close enough to the parent to do so without being "holier than thou". If it's something major, like carseats/seatbelts/endangerment it is YOUR DUTY, to that child, to say something to either that parent or authorities of some kind.

[Hanlie]

You are so right about cultural differences. Our situation is very different from a lot of other countries.

Adam and Kate will never ride their bikes in other streets until their teens, because in our country you cannot let your children out from under your eyes. There's a reason why we live behind safety gates and burglar bars and even have panic buttons all over our homes. Traffic rules are not enforced, making roads extremely dangerous for cyclists (who are often the worst offenders).

I wonder how many people realize that while there's a law stating that seatbelts are to be worn (which is of course not well-enforced, especially in mini-bus taxis), there are no laws stating that children should be restrained in cars. The majority of the population cannot afford car seats for their children. Nothing makes me sadder and madder than seeing a child standing up on the rear (or even front) seat of a car, or held on the passenger's lap. But what can we do? Car seats are very expensive in a country where lots of mothers leave the hospital with their newborn wrapped in newspaper. Most parents who can afford car seats, are responsible in this regard and restrain their children.

For the same reason, there will never be a law about bicycle helmets. We have to police ourselves in this regard, if and when these become necessary (i.e when the children will be allowed to venture further afield than the quiet cul-de-sac where they live - round about the same time they go to high school!)

Not to be too gloomy, but South African parents have to open their newspapers daily to stories of small girls being raped by HIV positive men who believe that this will cure them, or boys who are murdered so that there body parts can be used in "potions". Not once in a great while. Daily! We take our children's safety very seriously.

I like Chicago's suggestion of how we should address concerns. Nobody likes being criticized, but we would all like to learn from one another! And we have so much to offer one another.

And me not even a mother yet (not for lack of trying, though!)

[anon for this]

I voted for "clear and present danger" but agree that the question is a little more complicated than that. I do have to say that what occasionally happens here on Ye Old Blogge is not parents teaching each other. There's a kinder way to inquire about helmet choices than to rudely type "Helmets?!?!?!" That's not teaching, that's laying the judgemental smackdown on another woman. And feeling self-righteous about your own choices.

I'd venture to say that very few of the women reading here are uneducated about things like bathtime, helmets and sleeping. I think many of us have made different choices about these things. And those choices are informed by a number of different factors including socio-cultural norms in our varius parts of the world. I really don't think the Parenting Police have a place outside of some gross infraction. A friend who's truly concerned would email another woman privately, away from the public arena that comments provide and lovingly, sensetively ask a question and wait for a reply. Doing it in the comments is only self-glorification and "look at me, I'm the world's best mom."

[LaurieC]

I think it *so* depends on the situation. It also depends on the parent's experiences. For instance, it never occurred to me to say anything about the helmets on A & K. When I saw it, I thought "Oh, how cute" and the helmet thing didn't even occur to me. However, if it had been my kids, they'd have had to wear helmets. I know of a family who lost their toddler after they fell out of a high chair onto a tile floor and hit their head (which isn't even very far), so I am SUPER paranoid about protecting heads. I also have a friend who lost her best friend (before I met her) when she fell backward while rollerblading and hit her head on concrete. She left 2 small children. No kidding, I had my oldest wear a helmet on her tricycle. BUT - I also wanted to do this to have them get into the habit - i.e. using something with wheels, we must put our helmet on first. I didn't even call it a helmet, told her it was a bike hat. lol. I figure that if I have them do it when they're little, they're more likely to continue with it as they get older. And there are no laws here, but there have been campaigns emphasizing the importance of helmets, so maybe it's that I've been exposed to the propaganda, but for me it's a better safe than sorry thing, I guess. My old neighbor used to let her daughter ride all over without a helmet. While I didn't agree with it, I never said anything to her or her husband, either. I think it would take a life or death situation to really get me to speak up. However, I might mention it in casual conversation, if I could do it in such a way that it wouldn't alienate them or make them feel judged. Like a "Hey, did you know, because I found this out" sort of way.

[Lisa]

I have been reading your blog for a few months and will de-lurk to offer my 2 cents.

None of us are perfect - none of us know it all yet each one of us want to be the best possible parent we can be. We need to be successful for our families and our societies to survive - we need to raise a generation that can help to make this world a better, more peaceful place.

Helping each other achive a common goal should be a good thing. But somehow it usually doesn't end up feeling so helpful.

I think it comes down to the intent behind the message and the way it is delivered. Are we will trying to help - or are we trying to make ourselves feel better? Too often it is the latter that guides our actions - not the former.

The flashpoint for this series of discussions for was a single word. Without more to go on, it is easy to assume the worst and assume that we are being judged - and somehow falling short. What we don't know - is whether our assumptions are correct.

So - whenever I decide to offer comment on someone else's life - I try to remember that I have not walked in their shoes and they are doing their best. I try to do it from a helpful point of view and hope that I am not misunderstood.

I guess if I try to always approach the situation as it if I was talking to my friend - or my sister - then I am probably safe - when it is an unknown stranger whose life I don't know and whose feelings don't impact me - then I get myself in trouble.

I enjoy your blog and having a glimpse into the life of a woman, a wife, a sister, a mom, and employee and a friend in another place. Thanks for sharing a part of who you are.

[Dan]

As part of my job I have called social services on a number of parents. And have never, ever regreted doing so.

I have also voiced my disaproval of a man hitting his 2 year old daughter in public.

But I wouldn't criticise people for the way they feed their kids.

It's all shades of grey I suppose

[Kelli Hansen]

I think that Hanlie's response was wonderful. The difference in SA and, say, the US are vastly different. I live in Montana, where we have a very low crime rate. No one locks their cars, their houses, people leave their cars running in front of stores and they come back to find them right where they left them. Not that we're crime or worry free, not by any means. But, we do not have the worries that someone in SA would have. In SA a parent may not make their child wear a helmet because they don't find it as serious an issue as things they hear about daily, where I may not make my child wear a helmet because people just don't wear them here.

All that to say that I believe cultural differences play a huge part in the parenting decisions we make.

[anon]

I do think sometimes it can be helpful to share information about my experiences with other mothers. My daughter has SID, and occasionally I mention early signs to other moms whose kids are doing something funky. I am very careful to mention it in a way that is compassionate, like "I'm sure I am oversensitive to this because DD has SID, but from what I have read, being sensitive to textures of food can sometimes be a sign of SID. It's just something to keep in mind."

[zenoma]

I am a healthcare provider in the US and my area of specialty is child maltreatment. There is a clear line that needs to be drawn between true abuse (physical/sexual) and neglect, and what some may perceive to be what we'll call "bad parenting". Bad parenting is in the eye of the beholder, and it's not against the law.

I believe Tertia hit the nail on the head when she says "we need to validate our own parenting choices". If we see that someone is doing something differently, or has made a different parenting choice than we have, we assume that one of us must be wrong then. So we begin to make judgements in order to preserve our own ego. There is certainly more than one way to do things, and that is perfectly ok.

Who the Hell cares if you conceived "naturally" vs. IVF, or had a "natural" delivery vs. an epidural, or a vaginal delivery vs. a c-section, or breast vs. bottle feed, or "cry it out" vs. attachment parenting, or public school vs. home school, or organic diets vs. chicken nuggets and cookies, etc. etc. etc.

It gets worse. We then begin to compare: whose child is sleeping through the night, walked first, talked first, can read well, do math at 4 yrs old, can speak more than one language, goes to university, can play sports, or intruments, etc. We start to use all these markers to judge one another on who is the better parent, who has better children. Gah!

It is 2008 now. Think of where we could be as a global society if we as women merely supported and empowered one another. It's quite sad we spend so much energy taking jabs at one another in order to buttress our own ego. How beautiful it would be if we could observe a difference in other mother and simply marvel at the beauty in our divesity. To simply say "Wow, *you* are the best mother *your* children could have". (And without question declare to yourself, "*I* am the best mother *my* children could have.")

[Andrea]

If we don't learn these things from other parents, where do we learn them? Not all parents are well-read. Not all parents are mature. Not all parents have the natural parenting instinct for all things safe. Not all parents have a mother, aunt, or sister to lend them sage yet non-judgemental advice. Not all parents have a trusted pediatrician they feel they can call for anything. Some parents have NONE of these things. Are we to abandon them to chance, because we might offend them? That seems cruel!

Are we to restrain ourselves somewhat, and not be total busybodies? Should we think before we speak? Should we assess the situation before we yap about it? Sure we should! In the specific case of the helmets, you had two 3-year-olds riding tiny bikes on training wheels on a flat surface with a parent hovering close by. This is NOT the clear and present danger, the near concussion situation, that helmet laws were made for. Berating you for putting them in a near-death situation was over the top.

But the bottom line is that advice-givers come from all walks of life. Not everyone is going to use common sense when giving advice. I can bet nearly every parent on here can tell stories of the dumb-ass things people have told them, the kind of thing that makes you want to say to them, "Do you think I'm a farking IDIOT?"

So. I don't think we should ban all advice because we might rub someone the wrong way. That's illogical. We can each do our OWN personal best in offering advice, but unfortunately our own personal best is not the same as anyone else's, and especially if we are going to put our lives out for review (as you do, Tertia), we should be prepared to get those dumb-ass comments.

I've made dumb-ass comments. To you. About the bathing thing. I am a total FREAK about water safety due to a near-drowning my son had at 7 months. So I spoke out without knowing the whole story. Perhaps if we'd been sitting over a glass of wine and you'd told me that story, context and all would have kept me from saying it. But all I heard was "So my kids were bathing in the next room and..." and I freaked because that's my issue. We ALL have our issues. And perhaps we're more likely to strike out with unnecessary advice when our issues are tweaked.

[Amy]

Because darling, we know those kids are you life, and having raised our own we know that kids can fall within their parents reach and scrape the bejezus out of their knees and feet and OMG THE AMOUNT OF BLOOD FROM HEAD WOUNDS! and we know you would just feel awful for ages when that happens, because it will, and we love you lots and dont want you to feel awfull!

[jen w]

The parenting police that appear on blogs all the time are just the parents who would never say anything to a person's face but feel superior over the internet and think they know everything so they have to put their 2 cents in even though it isn't asked for or wanted. I can't believe the police you get on her (baths and bikes) it is insane. Who cares??? It is obvious you are a great mom who loves her kids, it isn't like we all have to worry that your kids are going to drown or fall of a bike. Do these people really feel they are making such a great difference? I personally think they like to "act" better than other parents by going around to other blogs and putting down parenting choices to make themselves and their low self esteems feel better. I will stop now, as you can tell it really irks me!

[Jessy]

Who are the 8% of the voters (as of now) who wouldn't intervene in the case of "clear and present danger"? That sounds snotty, but I really want to know why someone wouldn't act (not necessarily confronting the parent, but calling the police, talking to a teacher, minister, etc.) if a child was being raped, potentially murdered, abused?

[jill]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but many children are way overprotected these days. YEs, we love them dearly, but they need their share of spills - it's part of growing up. I guarantee Tertia's children are never in danger.

[Louise M]

I went with other, because I believe it is everyone's responsiblity, even if they aren't a parent, to do the "clear and present danger" thing.

I would say people were not picking on your parenting skill in regards to the bikes and helmets and shoes (yes, I offered my 2 cents, I just remember how upset I was the first time my daughter came in the house with her bloody toes after trying to stop her bike with her feet instead of the pedals and the helmets are law where I live, and I did ask what the laws were in your area). I would say it was more of advice. It's like going to a baby shower for a new mom, everyone who has raised a child wants to offer their advise on what they did with their children, and you may take some advise or you may not take the advise. The problem with the internet is that the party is f_cking huge and the advise is forever rambl'in.

And I totally agree with Amy, I understand how much you love your two little yard apes and if anything happened to them you would berate yourself for weeks. (which is why I put my two cents in regarding shoes and helmets)

[Sheridan]

Landscape architects have to think about these safety issues all the time - mostly so we don't get sued by someone who got schnockered and dove backwards into a pool from the roof of a garage and broke their neck. But also because of the Americans with Disabilities Act. In recent years we have had to shift our parameters to reflect the needs of so many people for whom issues of accessibility had been ignored for so long. In the process of publicizing the ADA, many many people who had been hurt in accidents told their stories, and that is one reason some parents are more likely to be aware of all sorts of things to be worried about. For many ADA advocates, a chance to tell their story and try to prevent someone else from being hurt is a life-long goal.

So, I guess it all depends (like everything?) on your point of view - I can't imagine reprimanding a complete stranger unless it seemed dire. But when a friend calls me up and says I must throw away all my tupperware because it's leaching something into my salad dressing, I know she is just looking out for me - in her own semi-nagging way. I think it's more about HOW the advice is given than exactly what sort of advice it is.

[Sarah]

I voted in the affirmative if you think the parent doesn't know any better. Because I "know" you (well enough through reading your blog), I would never comment on bath safety/helmet wearing/barefoot going, etc... because I believe you prove yourself to be an extremely thoughtful and vigilant parent that does not make flippant decisions and always has her child's best interest in mind. If I attribute these characteristics to you, then it makes no sense for me to warn you of safety recommendations or practices- any decision you've made was informed and I assume that. If you were a person that asked me regularly about how you should go about this and that, a self proclaimed nervous first time parent who wants all the tips they can get, etc...basically if you have invited advice repeatedly and essentially told me that you don't know any better? Then I would feel comfortable mentioning safety guidelines that I follow for your consideration.

Clear and present danger? I am a social worker and therefore a mandated reporter, so yes, I would immediately take action in that case.

[Deanna]

I voted clear and present danger. But for what it's worth, I don't have babies yet, but I lived with my sister for the first six weeks of her son's life and I think it's all about how the advice is presented. An article sent over email about the dangers of X, without editorial comment from the sender, went over much better than "Well, are you doing X, Y, and Z with Owen? WELL WHY/WHY NOT?!?"

One other thing--my otherwise-darling husband, when he wants to make an argument-winning point, starts things off with "You do know that..." and whenever I see a commenter on any blog start their advice off with that, I have to resist the urge to scream. It is so patronizing. I don't care how good the advice is when it starts off on that nasty a tone, I would shut their good intentions right out based solely on the condescending opener.

[Megan M]

A few minutes I was looking at another blog, and saw mention of someone who loved how much fun her child had vacuuming up baby powder with a little hand-held vacuum. I winced, because -- and yes, this is pretty obscure -- inhaling baby powder containing talc has caused quite a few deaths, not to mention lots of cases of severe respiratory distress in children - and I know how much dust is kicked into the air by my handheld vacuum. There's also research going on about how it may also cause cancer (later in life) in children that are exposed to it.

I almost put this in that blog's comments, and then I thought about what's been happening on your blog. Should I mention it? Am I just going to rain on this parent's parade? I DON'T KNOW! But I do kind of wish someone else would warn this parent . . . and 40 years down the line perhaps the kid will wish someone had warned them as well. But now I'm feeling like I shouldn't be the one to say anything.

By the way, I voted for "if the child could come to harm".

[Nicole]

None of what I say next negates this: that when a child is in a clear and present danger, every adult and person of sound mind and body has a moral duty to intervene.

We have friends who have a daughter - she's absolutely adorable: happy, doesn't ever cry (at least when I've seen her) and her parents are great; she is daddy's little girl all the way and they love her to pieces. She's about 2 now.

She has a skin condition; her mother has it too. I forget what its called, but it causes her to get blisters on her skin and it doesn't take much to get them. Consequently, they don't necessarily make her wear certain things like shoes, socks or mittens because they chafe and cause blisters.

In the two years she's been on this earth, they've received no less than 24 visits from the police - called there by well-meaning people.

Because she wasn't wearing socks or shoes.

Best of intentions - yet they cause a lot of stress for some parents.

And the whole helmet thing? Christ, I cycled at least four miles a day from 8 years to 12 years. And I didn't wear a helmet. I think its different if you're cycling in traffic, mind you, but on the back cul-de-sac of your street? Give it up people.

[Ellen B,]

Funny you ran into this all of this this week... It has been nice outside here (Massachusetts) for a few days this week and I took my four-year-old outside to play on his (miniscule, doesn't barely even ride over the driveway bumps, couldn't even push it fast if you wanted to) bike. We had a great time. Until we went to Target today and I curiously looked at children's bikes and realized that there were helmets displayed EVERYWHERE by the bikes. And I felt like such a bad, piece of shit parent for not making my son wear a helmet until I realized holy shit, he moved on that bike like at a snails pace. ANd I know, I know, get in the habit now, balh blah blah, but christ, he is FOUR and has plenty of time to learn about helmets. :)

[Kristin]

You know I don't comment often, T, but .. I too am for the whole clear and present danger thing.

Many moons ago before I was a parent of either of my children (so 16+ years ago), I was in the grocery store and the woman in front of me in the produce section had her little son with her sitting in the front of the cart. Granted he was not behaving, however what ensued in front of me nearly gave me heart failure.. He stood up in the seat and was going to jump out and I lunged forward to catch him. Instead of thanking me for catching him, she yelled at me for interfering in her discipline tactic (she had wanted him to fall to learn a lesson) and then proceeded to smack the child *hard* across his arms and chest. I instantly wanted to protect the child, but fearing for my own safety (I was 19 and unsure of how to handle it), I said "Hit him again, he isn't dead yet!" and went to find a manager... I still am unsure of how to handle the situation if there isn't clear and present danger..so I stay out of it unless of course there is a need for the child to be helped.

If the Mommy Police had looked at the pictures with a little more of a brain, they'd have seen the a) training wheels and b) the Daddy in them.

Now, 16+ years later, I'm a mom of two and if I'm putting my children in danger, someone had best tell me soon cause one is almost an adult herself.

[Artemisia]

I voted none of your business - and this is why:

With too many neurotic SAHMs watching too many cable channels desperately seeking a NEW! DEADLY! BUT PREVIOUSLY UNKNOWN DANGER! to report on, walking outside barefoot has been redefined as a clear and present danger, at least in the US. And it's completely moronic.

I'm actually a big believer in a community/neighborhood collaborating - to an extent - on raising its children. I've run things by my neighbors and friends for perspective all throughout my 16 years of parenting life.

But unfortunately, the average Self-Appointed Parent Policeman has the common sense of a golf ball.

Really - the pictures Tertia posted clearly show tiny kids on tiny bikes with parents close at hand. The impact of a potential fall in that situation is no greater than that of a child on foot. Anyone who actually LOOKED at the pictures and thought it necessary, appropriate, or in any way useful to mention helmets is either 1) forgetting that step where they employ their brain before typing or 2) a complete judgy moron.

[heatherG]

It's way more important to me whether the child is loved and nurtured rather than 100% protected from every little bump, scape, or even broken bone. They need to learn their own lessons sometimes.
Children should live their lives free from abuse, neglect, and violence though.
You did a post a while back about what were our mothering no nos. Everyone has different issues that are their biggies (I'm anal about sunblock and hats).

[Gina]

I voted for "if the child might come to any possible harm".
I assume that "clear and present danger" falls under this heading as well.
I think that if a child is any kind of danger (left unattended/being abused/no seatbelts etc...) I would act.
stubbing toes and getting scrapes and bruises is part of growing up, its a part of learning how we fit into the physical world and how we act and react in that world.
Had I walked by the road when that picture was taken I would have smiled, noting how much fun not only A and K were having but their parents were having too and walked away feeling all warm and fuzzy.

*having written out my thoughts perhaps I should change my vote to 'clear and present danger"*

[Sister Mel]

Why do we always see it as judgement and not as advice?
We can learn an enormous amount from each other and all have tips to share. I think we need to be more sensitive to the way we do it and less defensive in the way we receive it.
Some situations are more serious....
I drove past a couple both strapped in while the toddler was STANDING on the back seat with his face peeking between their seats.
I wish I had a sign to flash them saying buckle your kid in immediately!

[Adi]

It's all about who it comes from. If it's your family or a close friend you probably know the intentions behind it. If it is a random troll, absolutely not and you have every right to feel invaded and irritated with that, especially if it was done with that person not having any context of the country, the actual situation and its safety etc. etc. Then it becomes patronising and that gets most people's backs up very quickly.

I think you always make it very clear on your blog when you are asking for advice and then you have always been quite open to the good, the bad and the ugly coming from your readers. If it is not asked for and someone still wants to wave a finger at you, I think doing that through a private email disclosing one's full details is just much more polite and grownup, as one is taking full responsibility for any consequences that may be made on your feelings without involving the whole world in your own personal policing mission.

[Alexandra/Infertile Gourmet]

Rolling my eyes here in a grating way. I think what annoys me so very much is the "protect your child from every hangnail" mentality. I rode my bike without a helmet and I am fine. I am also intelligent enough to know that accidents could happen and some are not fine. I walked barefoot, drove in a car without a carseat, etc and I am fine. I got scraped knees, fell off my horses and landed on my head, and flew over the hanlebars of my bike. Life happens and I had so much fun in between the bumps and blood.

I have lived in three different countries and visited others for an extended time and one of the things that frustrated me is the sterile lifestyle that Americans strive to achieve. We are so caught up in protection, safety, and making sure that everyone is living up to the next rule that we have rules for rules. It makes my head spin. I do not get where this attitude came from but I know that it is pervasive in our brains. Of course it's wake affects us moms. Danger is around every corner. Common sense is out the door and respect for one's parenting has left the building.

Personally, my kid is not over-protected and I hope she takes on the world without fear. My worrying as a mother will not aid her in confidence and I fully suspect if I did control all aspects she could not become the woman she is supposed to be.

Reasonable protection of our kids is great. Use a carseat if you would like, helmets fine, shoes fine, but leave parents alone that intend something else for their child.

Having said that if a child was in real and obvious danger intervention should happen. That is one's moral obligation. Real danger in my mind is a toddler walking along a busy road, being around a dangerous person, abuse in the home etc. Helmets do not make the cut in my mind.

[jacki janse van rensburg]

wow, you certainly have - unintentionally - triggered a huge debate! and although you had to bear the brunt of the discussion, it has made me, and hopefully others, think about: am i under/over protecting my child? when and how do i speak up or shut up? it has also shown me that south african children are still so 'free'. to play, and run, and jump, and tumble, and fall, and scrape, and learn consequences, and responsibilities. barefoot, with the wind in their hair and the sun on their skin, and sometimes tears in their eyes. one tends to forget this, when we are reminded daily of the dangers our south african families face.

[Coral]

I haven't voted.

I am paranoid about children in cars.

I have written letters to newspapers about it. I truly belive that a parent allowing their child to roam around the car unrestrained should be charged with attempted murder. (Yes, I am over the top here!)

And the Traffic Police should carry a photo album of before and after photos of children that have been in car accidents having not been restrained. The offending parent should be forced to look at all the pictures, until they are convinced that their child's life is in danger.

This is the only area I will tell a parent what they are doing is dangerous. So, in that circumstance only, I will become the PP!!

All you have to do is stay parked at your local child care centre for 5 mins to see this one in action.

(I agree with Hanlie completely with her comment!)

(Yes, I am really off my head over this one!!)

[Dani]

I don't normally comment but this question got me thinking. I'm an American living in Taiwan. I have two small children who were born here. In this culture people have no problem giving their constant opinion about everything and anything. Nor do they have a problem scolding you for whatever offense or bad parenting that they have witnessed on your part. For instance my son's teacher scolded me for not dressing him properly. She felt he was too cold. I thought he was fine. I've grown used to being constantly scolded that I don't really care anymore. I think I take it with a grain of salt and with the understanding that they just care about my child like I do. I also think the ability to accept criticism, opinions and what-not has to do with how secure you feel as a parent. If you are questioning yourself or feeling inadequate it's easy to feel like you're being judged or being put down. When my son was first born people's constant comments had me in tears. Now, I just smile and nod and go on my merry way. Of course, that does depend what kind of day I'm having.....

[teki]

I think Alexandra summed it all up very nicely. I never had a bike helmet, rode in a carseat...etc. Does that mean my child did the same? No, she has a helmet on and had a carseat until she was 10. I feel what other parents do is their business, their child. If they feel their child is safe or fine, what business is it of mine to tell them what to do or how to do it differently? I feel the question concerning parent police is about these types of issues, not about the big ones, the toddler running toward a busy street, an infant left in a car with no one around...To me, in those situations it isn't about parent policing, it is about being helpful. If my kid were running toward the street or in danger and I am occupied, I absolutely would want ANYONE to jump to their defense. I call that help, not nosing. As the helmet police to my own kid, I didn't even notice your cuties weren't wearing helmets. You are doing a great job and I can see how annoying it can be to have someone be such a pill over such little things (helmets, bathtubs, good grief can't we just enjoy Tertia's posts without looking for something negative?)

[Aurelia]

I haven't read the comments above or taken the poll, I can't bear too.

Honestly, yes, there is a place for the parenting police, especially if the parents in question are truly doing something stupid. It should only be done with true intentions of helping the child, and not with self-aggrandizing on the part of the assvicer. It should be done quietly and discreetly, and gently.

Most of your commenters and readers, like you Tertia, seem to be normal, middle class parents who do okay jobs, so maybe you don't need the assvice. But as a child who was raised in an incompetent abusive home, (that presented as a middle class home to the outside world) I know that my life would've been much better if someone, ANYONE, had given a damn enough to care about my safety. No one ever did, and now, I have stumbled to figure out how to parent my kids.

I had no examples growing up to copy. I only know that whatever they taught me, was wrong. I have to do the opposite of my first instinct, always. So, I actually appreciate assvice. I spend so much time reading parenting books, watching others and trying to imitate them and unlearn my bad habits...you simply have no idea how hard it is for me to be a good parent.

And assvice helps. I need the village, even the parenting police. I do.

[Becki]

Parenting is such a hard business. There are a million ways to mess it up, and just as many to get it right. Even in my nice suburban neighborhood, I see parenting practices with which I disagree. The child's safety is not at issue, though, so I keep my trap shut. I certainly don't want my neighbors' opinions on how much TV my kids watch or whether I should buy organic yogurt.

But if a child were in immediate or likely danger? I would surely speak up, involving the authorities if necessary. And just how I would speak up would depend on whether I thought the parent were simply unaware of the danger or actively bringing it about.

[Kim]

I think you saying: Your kids = You decide, My kids = I decide has become my new motto for life. I will not give anymore advice unless asked because I will not take any more advice unless I ask (and maybe not even then).

[Nicole]

Tertia, I'm just still so taken aback by the US "law" mentality that permeates into our parenting practices here. And I'm not saying that seat belts, car seats, and helmets aren't beneficial. It just seems to me that we (USA) residents are hyper vigilant particularly when a law has been passed mandating such things.

For example, w/the helmet thing. Did all of these vehemently pro-helmet people have their toddlers wearing helmets on their big wheels? How about the baby ride-ons? I mean my toddler is a climber, she can often be found as high as she can go. Should I make her wear a helmet 24/7? It would protect her should she fall?

And I'm sorry, but if I'm on a private 40 acre parcel and allowing my child to drive on my lap to the mailbox at 2 mph - well FOR SHAME! Or heaven forbid letting my 13 yr old drive on same private parcel - ARRRGGHHH.

And what about California's new law, prohibiting smoking in a vehicle with children under age 18. (Note - I understand that smoking in a confined place is not good for anyone, but I think by passing a law it now gets to be this super-stigmatized thing. And let's be honest, if an adult is smoking w/a kid in the car, then they're probably smoking w/a kid in the house.) It seems to me that the better solution is educating people to the negatives of second hand smoke and offering help to quit smoking for people who are ready.

And let me say that this IS a cultural thing and in my opinion a relatively new phenomenon. I think that the more successful and benign safety campaigns in the US are the ones that go on without laws (for example helmets for skiing). I think the best solution is to provide people with all the necessary information and help them to make good choices (e.g. provide free/discount car seats, helmets, etc. for people that can't afford them.) But ultimately I think the decision belongs to the parent and I think the hyper vigilant rule keepers need to realize that there are sometimes exceptions to which the rule does not pertain and was not intended.

I'm sorry to go on, but I really feel that this parenting police thing stems from people feeling that someone is watching them. I sadly see a lot of suspicion and fear that exists in our modern parenting worlds, but oddly when I speak one-on-one with people I find most people have broken some rules (not always the same ones I break), will quietly and non-publicly admit to such, and that they follow the path that makes most sense for them.

OK, off my soapbox. Hope I don't get a pile of drive-bys. :-)

[Shandra]

I'm American-Canadian and I sort of find that Americans are more direct:

American: Shouldn't your child be wearing a helmet?
Canadian: blah blah blah story about child without a helmet blah blah blah

So I think even the advice thing is cultural.

For me, well, I get annoyed at ad/assvice but I don't really feel it is a grave insult or anything. Most of the time it's done out of concern, however inflated or misguided, for my son. And frankly that IS the world I want to live in - where people care.

The world where people don't care and are always hands off seems cold to me. I will not always be there. In the long run, I'd rather have to sigh and deal with my feelings... and have someone step in should my son ever be in real danger in a moment that I am not there or attentive or whatever.

But I am Canadian enough to think that there are ways to have the conversation a bit more obliquely. :-)

[webmacher]

I think generally, butting out is a good thing except for when there is obviously immediate danger. Even then, I'd be nervous about intervening directly, I'd probably be chickens**t and call a store manager or something.

I have one (controversial) pet peeve though: vaccination, as in parents proudly declaring that they have no intention of getting their kids their shots/jabs. That one drives me up a wall, because I think in addition to possibly endangering the children if they get exposed to something serious, they are DEFINITELY endangering people with weakened immune systems if they pass on one of the many avoidable bugs. That's a situation where it's not "My children, my way," IMHO. So I've been getting into some arguments online lately!

[jemyr]

You know, I originally thought that the poster who started this flurry was my sister, but she doesn't have three kids so I guess it wasn't her. My brother-in-law is a pediatric neurosurgeon and he endlessly harps about the helmet thing, yes, even on a tricycle. He's seen a lot of kids die because putting a helmet on them was an "annoyance". From personal experience, I had my child riding without a helmet when he was visiting and sighed when he told me to put a helmet on them... b/c really the situation didn't warrant it and it was a hassle. That sigh put him into a frenzy! He said it was all about making sure the kid understood that helmets were mandatory and there were no exceptions, and it was a serious issue, not an optional one. Then he proceeded to tell me all the horror stories he had seen happen to tiny little toddlers. I still can't get the images out of my head.

So, he's mr safety police, and I don't mind it from him, because I get it. You see that horror daily, and you feel you have to be the one to get the word out.

So, I don't know what point I"m trying to make. I generally try to stay out of people's business, I hate it when people chastise me about things that I think are stupid (especially when I feel I'm doing just fine given the circumstances), and I find hyper-vigilant mothers tiresome. I guess my answer would be: Always do what's the most respectul for all parties involved, including the child. The key is knowing where to draw the line, but that's true for everything.

[Libby]

Ok, so I got all ADD and stopped reading comments after like the 3rd one. But my own 2 cents are that we Americans tend to by like my mother, who thinks EVERYTHING is her business.

Tertia - your children and clothed, fed, and loved. When I first saw the pictures of your kids on their bikes, my first thought was "what a wonderful way to spend an afternoon", not "ohdearlordwherearetherehelmetsshoesprotectivekneepadsandbubblewrap??????" So the fact that it even became a 'thing' came out of right field for me.

But then again, I am a bad mother myself, seeing that I just don't offer grapes to my toddler, because I am too lazy to cut the damn things up.

Americans do not understand that things are not the same the world over. We also seem to believe that everyone MUST DO IT OUR WAY. It is OUR WAY OR THE HIGHWAY. Frustrating to be lumped in with the parenting police.

All that being said - all my righteous indignation and annoyance with my own ilk being spilled - I do think I'd step in if I saw a child in clear and present danger - because honestly, I would hope someone would help my child.

Anyway, I happen to think Kate and Adam are among the luckiest kids on the world. And who makes their 3 year old wear a helmet with training wheels? How fast can one go in a cul-de-sac with 4 wheels? Oy veh.

[Emma in Amsterdam]

I said "none of my business", because I think stepping in when a child's life is in imminent danger has got nothing to do with the Parenting Police, it's being part of a normal society.

Of course I see "bad parenting" around me all the time: we live in a poor so called "zwarte wijk" in Amsterdam, where people tend to be more carefree when it comes to parenting their children. More often than their Dutch peers these Maroccan, Turkish and Surinam children are overweight, stay outside when it's dark (even as toddlers) and are not restrained in a car. Still, they are alive, do well in school, are energetic and clearly being loved by their parents. There's no reason to advise those parents (not) to do something.

I know I (would) do things differently when it comes to my child, but that doesn't make me a better parent. Although the world WOULD be a better place if everyone would do as I do, of course :-)

[Melissia]

I grew up barefoot in the southern United States, going barefoot outside all summer until it school started. However, I have since moved to the Gulf Coast Of the United Stated and going barefoot can result in the transmission of hookworms from the soil through the skin. This is a nasty intestional parasite carried by dogs and other mammals. Shoes for me from now on! So if you were to move into my part of the world and I saw your kids running around barefoot I would mention the recent problem with hookworm this spring, it would be up to the parents to do decide what to do.
As a nurse, by law, at work, I am required to report any suspected child abuse or neglect, or risk losing my nursing license.

[carosgram]

Basically I believe that parents should be able to make their own choices and everyone should myob. However, on occasion I offer my opinion. If someone asks for it and I believe they will listen, I tell them 'my' truth. Or if what the child is doing directly effects me I will speak to the child. In my experience children usually turn out fine no matter what different choices their parents make. It is my opinion that today's parents are generally overly concerned about and involved in their children's lives. Kids have very little privacy today and hardly ever get to make mistakes without someone seeing it. What a loss. Children make childish decisions and should not have to hear about everyone of them from the adults. Parents should have the same privileges - to make mistakes and not have to be criticized for them. JMO

[Christy]

Clear and present danger here too.

I go with the gut check - if I see something that makes my gut queasy, I will probably say something. Couched in the most sensitive terms I can find - usually along the lines of "I know this is annoying of me to say" or "I just saw this thing that said"

I did it just the other day when someone posted a picture of their 9-month-old unraveling toilet paper while they ran outside to check the mail. The baby was next to an open toilet and the Mom mentioned his hands were wet. Was it annoying of me to mention that I had just learned toilets are a huge drowning risk? Absolutely. But the thought of that Mom or any other one finding her baby head down in a toilet was too much to bear knowing I might be able to encourage them to get a toilet lock or keep a closer eye.

I would never say I'm a perfect Mom and my baby is never in danger, but if someone saw him in jeopardy of dying, yes, I would want them to tell me.

[anonforthis]

Just as a counterpoint to the "Pffft, I rode in a car without a carseat, and I was fine!" chorus, I rode in a car without a carseat and got thrown the fuck out of the car and still carry a disfiguring scar in a prominent location. This was before seatbelt laws.

I didn't twig to the "OMG, no helmets!" thing because really, what's the worst that could happen on a very short bike on a private road next to their parents? A nasty scrape? Probably. Now, if the two of us were neighbors and I saw you heading out to a busy road with your kids on bikes, I'd probably say "Oh, Tertia, do you need to borrow helmets for the kids?" or some such.

If I saw someone with an unrestrained child in a car, I would be on the phone with the cops, because having being thrown out of a car as a child, I can't say I'd recommend it. It fucking HURTS. Being teased by other kids about your ugly scar? Isn't fun. Being told by the doctor that the insurance won't cover reconstructive surgery? Not enjoyable.

Jesus.

And to everyone who said they wouldn't intervene under any circumstances? There is so much wrong with that. Fuck.

[SZ]

Delurking here because for some reason I've been thinking about this debate for a few days, and the uproars about the helmets and the bathtub, and realizing that it ALL comes down to cultural difference. Because Tertia happens to be white and English-speaking and lives in a nice suburb, it's easy for Americans to assume that life in South Africa is pretty similar to life in America. Folks, it isn't. At all.

In the US, there's awareness about helmets and bath safety and seatbelts, etc because the government sponsors awareness campaigns. Guess what? In South Africa, they have their hands full with MUCH bigger and more dangerous health and safety problems than those.

To worry about a child going without a bike helmet, or being left alone in the bath, is a PRIVILEGE. Because it means you don't have to worry about that child dying of a preventable illness or malnutrition. It means you have the privilege of a bike and a place to ride it. It means you have clean water and a nice tub to bathe in. Most of Africa's children don't have any of those things.

Even without helmets, even left alone in the bath for five minutes, Tertia's children are safer and healthier than 99.9% of the children in Africa. Obviously Tertia and her sister and their friends are doing their best to make a change in this, and help all they can, but that's just the reality. And it's a reality that Americans don't have to face. I can imagine that the things you see on a daily basis in SA would make the bike helmet issue seem like small potatoes indeed.

[Patty]

Clear and present danger.

I wanted to slap an old man who made a comment to me that my boys weren't dressed warmly enough the other day (for a walk from the mall door to our car, for Christ's sake.)

But I tell you what ... both my husband and I are obese (we're trying so, so hard, but for the moment, we both still are), and if my boys get heavy, I will go apeshit on anybody who thinks they can talk to me about it. As God as my witness, I will.

Ok, I'm so upset now I'm going to hog on a bag of chips. No, no, just kidding.

[Sarah]

I think there are two issues here. One the parenting police and the other being that if you have a blog and put your life out there then you have to deal with the fact that there will be comments. Also the fact that they all won't be telling you how wonderful you are.

Exploring they way others live there lives, raise their children, relate to their partners and see themselves in the world is one of the main reasons I read a variety of blog. I certainly get riled up and confused about what some people focus their attention on but that is not where I have a choice. If you want to mollycoddle your kids, unnaturalise your body with plastic surgery or put moral judgements on whether you are good or bad by eating certain foods then go for it.

My choice starts with this being a public space with a place for comment and goes no further.

[Kerrin]

I agree the parenting police were being over vigilant in the case of Adam and Kate being helmetless. However I voted for yes if the parent doesn't know better. In times gone by children would be raised by extended networks of people and communities, often by people with more experience than first time mums. On seeing me put my 2 month old baby in an incorrectly fitted baby capsule my friend advised me the correct way it should be fitted. At first I felt embarrassed for not knowing better - but how could I? I was only doing what I thought was right. I am glad she told me and there have been plenty of other things I have been told since which have helped me in my role as a parent. There is a distinction to be made though between giving your two cents worth when completely unwarranted and helping a new mum with advice/guidance delivered in the right way. For those who chose no intervention, are you serious? It pains me to say about 10 children are killed here every year in New Zealand by a member or members of their family. We all have a moral responsibility to protect those who cannot protect themselves.

[Elaine]

I too was one of the ones who brought up safety and truly, my only desire was to help. I remember the pain my brother went through after hurting himself riding barefoot, and it was something nobody in our family had ever even thought could ever happen. I would hate to see your beautiful children, whom I have loved and been applauding since their birth, possibly be hurt. I had no intention of criticism when I said it, simply a desire to prevent possible pain as a result of my family's experience, and am sorry it came across as anything else. I can see that things might need to be worded more carefully in the future(that's what comes of posting pre-coffee of a morning.)

[Always Be Careful]

First, I heart Aurelia!

Second, I had no issue with Tertia's picture, because as a regular reader (though not a poster) of her blog, I know how much she cares. The picture said it all. IT was beautiful day with two lovely kids and their two lovely parents. The driveby comments are what makes the internet not such a great place to wander.

That being said though, I have to say I am appalled by the commenters who pass off helmets and other such safety tools as "over protectiveness." Those people who did all that and were fine? I suggest you take a walk through the children's ICU sometime. It's not pretty and most of it is preventable with simple precautions like helmets and restraints. Most of those kids aren't fine and will never be again.

I spent a summer working in one such unit and I never again want to witness in my life what happens when a parent learns their child is gone. Yes a broken bone heals, a broken head and a broken heart -- not so much.

You may have a choice not to use those tools but you don't give the health professionals any choice when they have to tell you the bad news.

You don't give the driver any choice when your child decides today is the day they are going to take off down the drive and into the path of their truck.

You don't give the rescue team any choice when they have to dive off the dock to retrieve your child's body after you left your child unrestrained and that was the day he decided to see what would happen when he engaged the gear shift like daddy and the truck rolled into the lake.

I think I'll choose to be the busy body that points out the safety issues not being addressed. At least I can sleep at night knowing I tried to make a difference in a child's life.

[Kelly (Mamallama)]

Quote: With too many neurotic SAHMs watching too many cable channels desperately seeking a NEW! DEADLY! BUT PREVIOUSLY UNKNOWN DANGER! to report on, walking outside barefoot has been redefined as a clear and present danger, at least in the US. And it's completely moronic.

That wasn't a very nice comment. I get where you are coming from but the way you said it really sucked. Not every SAHM is nuerotic or watches too many cable channels.

[A]

Ah shit, I clicked on the wrong button in the poll :( Sorry.. I meant to say only in a clear danger situation. Blah.
Anyway, I just want to say to Kelly above me here, she said "too many NEUROTIC sahm's". I don't think it was aimed at all sahm's so no need to take offence. Sheesh.. eveyone's quite touchy on this!