“Love and marriage go together like a horse and carriage…..?”

The South African National Assembly yesterday passed a bill allowing for same sex marriages.  I think it is wonderful, but I was very surprised to find out I am apparently in the minority.  According to some polls, most people are against legalizing same sex marriage.  And I really, honestly can’t understand why.

 I am not being facetious when I ask these questions, but I need help understanding why some people are so opposed to allowing gay people access to the same rights and opportunities that we all (should) enjoy in a humanitarian society.  Why shouldn’t they be allowed to formalize their union in anyway they choose to?  If they choose to celebrate their love, dedication and commitment to each other by getting married; then how does that have any impact what so ever on anyone else?  

 (Whether marriage is the sensible thing for anyone to do is another story all together – only joking Darling Husband of mine, I love you!  Thrilled to be married to you! Marriage is wonderful etc etc!)

 I don’t understand the opposition. Really though, I am not being facetious at all. If you choose not to be gay, then good for you.  Legalizing gay marriages will not make you gay / will not mean you have to marry a gay person and really shouldn’t affect your life in any way. It is not as if you will suddenly be forced to attend weekend after weekend of extravagant nuptials starring lavender-suited Elton John look-alikes mincing down the aisle to “Dancing Queen”.

 Seriously though, I am trying to understand the opposition to the legalization of gay marriages. Perhaps people have moral / religious objections? Let me think … ok, let’s say you don’t believe in sex before marriage because you think it is morally wrong. Good, fine. Then you don’t sleep with anyone before marriage.  Whether I slept with Marko before we got married or not (which of COURSE I didn’t, being so virginal etc), shouldn’t affect anyone else. You might think same sex marriage is wrong / immoral / against your religion, then just don’t do it yourself. But allow other people the choice to do what feels right for them.

 But perhaps I am missing the point somewhere. I’d like understand your viewpoint. And saying it is ‘wrong’ in any moral / religious etc sense isn’t a good enough answer I’m afraid.  That is too much like “just because”. Substantiate your answer. Help me understand that it isn’t just a case of “I don’t like it and therefore they can’t”.  

 I hope we can have a civil conversation about this.  You can go anon if you like, but any discriminatory / inflammatory / nut job comments will be deleted.

Comments

[Angie]

I'm with you. I really don't care what anyone else does, as long as they aren't doing it to me.

I just don't have the time or energy to involve myself in other people's relationships.

[Not sure]

Well, in my religion, marriage is a sacrament. It *is* a bit offensive to me to have two women call themselves married.

HOWEVER, I see the point in how gays want to be together. I see the committed relationships. There are legal issues etc.

I also don't like the flippant way people get married and then divorced. That also offends me. IMO, marriage is serious.

I would much rather have committed couples in stable relationships gay or straight. I think it benefits all of us.

[Jennifer]

While I firmly believe homosexuality violates God's law, I also believe that no human government has any rational basis for denying homosexuals the right to marry. The actions of homosexuals in this matter have no effect on anyone and I see no reason to discriminate against them in this fashion. Perhaps it comes down to many people not wanting to give tacit approval or enabling homosexual relationships, but I don't see it that way myself.

[jenny]

I am in agreement with you as well. We legalized Gay marriage in Canada a few years ago, although it's still hottly debated. A good friend of mine is very very against gay marriage so I'll give you her arguement. She is a devote catholic and believes strongly that marriage is a sacrement between a man and woman - period. Marriage is simply not something that can occur between two people of the same sex. I don't understand her arguement, but she is quite stuck in standing behind it. In Canada, no church is forced to perform a gay marriage - quite often it's done in a cival service. To me, it's more about the gay couple having the same rights as a hetro married couple in the event of things like death, injury, child rearing, etc - and I believe they are entitled to those rights.

[debi]

i think the thing is that people have certain ideas of what they think 'society' as a whole should or shouldn't support. someone who believes being gay is morally wrong, will not want to live in a society that supports gayness. they don't want society to do what they think is 'wrong'.

i know that everyone's into 'you believe whatever you like just don't bother me with it' these days, but i don't think beliefs work that way. i think religion is about society. it's about ideas and rules that hold people together and give them a common identity. a society works much better if everyone sticks to the same standard of what is right and wrong (utopically speaking).

it's a matter of what gets taught to our kids too. we want society to reflect what 'we' think is best, so that our kids will grow up with the best. if we think being gay or having sex before marriage is wrong, we don't want society to condone this, because we fear the influence it'll have on our kids.

apart from this, some of us also believe that there is a supreme God in heaven who set up certain guidelines to life. the answer to your question then isn't 'because i don't like it' but 'because God doesn't like it'. i know this probably isn't a good-enough answer for you, but for the people that do have such a view of God it is. compared to God we are infinitely small and worthless, so who are we to argue with his laws? i'm not saying you have to agree with me on this, but i want you to know that for some people this IS a good enough reason. it's just a whole different attitude towards life, whether or not we believe in an all-powerful absolute truth God or not.

[j]

People who oppose gay marriage on religious grounds are missing the point. I don't expect the Catholic Church to be performing same-sex marriages any time soon. The Church has a particular definition of marriage that that does not fit. Fine. But the good old justice of the peace or a judge etc. is not officiating over a religious sacrament, but is creating a civilly recognized legal union between two people. So oppose marriage in a church, if you must, but recognize that that has nothing to do with state-sanctioned marriage.

I have friends who are in favor of civil unions as long as it is not called marriage. But to me allowing a civil union that looks like a marriage, but isn't called a marriage is just the old "separate but equal" dodge. In the US, there was a time when the Supreme Court decided it was okay to have separate white buses and black buses etc. as long as they were "equal." But "separate" can never be "equal." Words matter. Gay couples want to have the legal rights of married couples, sure. But they also want recognition, and that label matters. So even though there is a tiny part of me that feels a little funny calling it "marriage," I recognize that that funny feeling is based on cultural and social history, and nothing more. There is NO REASON not to allow same-sex couples to get MARRIED. I believe it is inevitable. The tide has turned, and nothing will turn it back. It is like giving women the vote. Can you imagine a world now where women are not allowed to vote? I think that certainly in my children's lifetimes, people will feel the same way about same-sex marriage.

[Kay]

I've often thought that it is the word "marriage" that hangs up alot of people. I'm not one of them. I've heard the argument that allowing gays to marry will destroy the sanctity of marriage. Oh, really? How? How is it any different than straights who don't take marriage seriously? People who have "starter marriages"? People who get married 4 and 5 times? Are those people really committed to marriage? IMHO, no, they are not. Sometimes marriages don't work out for whatever reason. Being gay has nothing to do with it.

I understand the viewpoint of being against homosexuality on a religious basis. That's fine. It's bigoted, but fine.

The GOVERNMENT is not allowed to have those predjudices. At least it shouldn't be allowed to. Call it a civil union. In fact call ALL non-religious ceremonies a civil union if you want. I had one of those. And I'm Catholic. Apparently, not a very good one. Oh well. I guess that will be between me and God.

Instead of being married, we can be unioned. What ever.

Let the gay people get married. They deserve every right, priviledge, protection under the law that the rest of us have.

[Jessy]

In a society that believes in the separation of church and state (and I realize not all do), I don't see how there are any grounds for prohibiting gay marriage. The only objections I've ever seen or heard to gay marriage are rooted in religion.

For example, not to pick on debi, but consider her commens:

"We want society to reflect what 'we' think is best, so that our kids will grow up with the best. ... apart from this, some of us also believe that there is a supreme God in heaven who set up certain guidelines to life. the answer to your question then isn't 'because i don't like it' but 'because God doesn't like it'."

That's all fine, but (at least in the US) we live by a legal code that is separate from what different gods dictate is best. When I was growing up, I didn't eat meat on Fridays because I was taught that God didn't like it. I'd never presume to try to make that law. To me, this falls into the same camp. No one is requiring churches to perform gay marriages, nor should they.

It's bigotry hiding behind a religious guise, as it often does.

[Jenn]

I thinks it's discrimination to not allow them to get married. I'm also Catholic. It's just not fair to say only certain people can get married. Who cares? Two women or two men marrying each other doesn't threaten my marriage in any way. I've know a lot of same-sex couples that have better relationships than I do.

[Katherine]

First time posting - couldn't help myself on this one. As someone who was raised Catholic, I was married in the church and am raising my children in the church. One of my most fervent hopes is that when my children are grown, they will have complete freedom to choose who they wish to marry. It was my unencumbered right to marry whomever I chose - why should I have any different right to fall in love just because I chose someone of the opposite sex? Love is love, family is family. Family is not, in my opinion, defined by gender, but by loving, supporting, and accepting eachother.

[One of Two Mommies]

As a lesbian woman in a very committed relationship I appreciate reading all of the comments above. I too don't "get it" when people say they don't approve of same sex marriage. It takes a lot for me to get angry, but when I hear or read about people adamently arguing against same sex marriage it impacts me profoundly. I react from a very deep emotional level and it feels like a personal attack. Not that this post has made me feel that way! Quite the opposite - I am enjoying seeing people's views being articulated.

When I hear the arguments it makes me feel that my way of life, my choice in a partner is not honored or valued. It makes me feel "less than". Or at least it does until I tell myself that it is just someone elses opinion, not what I believe to be true. I believe everyone is entitled to their opinions and respect religious groups rights to not marry whomever they don't want to. My devout Catholic cousin who volunteers TONS for her church got a divorce and then met a wonderful man and was not allowed to be married in her own church. Knowing certain groups' opinions means there is no way I am going to want to be married in a that groups church - why would I place myself in a situation that doesn't fully embrace me on such a special day? When my partner and I do get married (and I live in Canada so I can) we will surround ourselves with people who have always loved and supported us and will have a friend who is a United Church children's minister officiate for us (even though we are not associated with the church).

PS - Tertia I am happy to report that the pregnancy is going well! I am 19 weeks today, have a nice round tummy and had a ultrasound last week that looked wonderful! I think this may finally happen for us :-)

[Suzie-Q.]

Tertia~
Yours is a question of tolerance. Either people are tolerant of the beliefs of others, or, they are not. It's as simple as that for me.
Personally, I have no problem with what whatever anybody else wants to do with their private lives as long as they don't hurt me and mine in the process.
The problem i find with many of those who rely on religious grounds for their argument is that they so often believe that theirs is the ONLY correct and good way to live. They are intolerant of others and I find that hypocritical in many of these folks who claim to be such loving types.
My sexual orientation has nothing to do with you. My religious beliefs have nothing to do with you. People should just stay out of both of these and realize that gay marriages/unions (or whatever you feel *comfortable* calling them) have absolutely no ill effect on others. And, everybody should be entitled to the same civil and societal benefits. Not just the ones that you or I personally think should be entitled to them.
I mean, how is it fair that I was a member of the lucky sperm club and was born hetero? That was just plain luck for me to be born in this day and age with these societal norms. But, the norms change. They are ever evolving to keep up with the reality of our culture.
Comparing this issue to the women's vote is absolutely, 100% correct and on point. What about slavery? These issues were also originally argued from a biblical perspective and failed. MISERABLY, i might add..

Oh, don't get me started....

[Jamie]

I actually have a cousin who is homosexual and she and I have discussed this and she actually agrees with me.

I think gay marriage should be allowed with a stipulation (and I think most churches will enforce this anyway) (and BTW: I was raised Catholic but am no longer religious).

I do not think that gays should be allowed to get married in a church or by a "preacher". A courthouse union seems fine to me, but marriage, as a religious sacrement, does not. Many churches do not condone homosexual activity. Until they do, I do not think that homosexuals should be allowed to get married there. The foundations of the church would have to change -- as well as many passages in the Bible.

Just my 2 cents -- and probably worth less. :)

[ls]

Here in the US this is such a huge, decisive issue. What I find astonishing is that people actually CARE about what two adults do in their lives, particularly as it hurts no one. And care enough to demonstrate, pass laws, freak out about two peopl wanting to marry. For many years people used the belief that gay people were dangerously promiscuous as a reason whay being gay was awful; now that mnay gay people want to marry, monogamy isn't good enough for these nosy busybody types either!! Why people can't focus on REAL issues that affect families, like poverty, substance abuse, violence etc etc is the sad part of all of the brouhaha over gay rights.

[Em]

I was going to post part of j's comment (but probably not as articulartly) regarding the state of marriage as it applies to a religious ceremony vs a goverment recognized contract. I agree wholly with that.

But even as a Catholic (who struggles because I do disagree with alot of the political views of the church) I can't abide by the arguement "its not what God wants". I don't know what God wants and I think its arrogant to think you do. I'm going to try to live a good, accepting, loving life and hope I was on the right side of God but I'm not going to try to guess what he wants just because one side of an arguement thinks that is a trump card.

This may sound very pollyanna-ish but what confuses me most about this being an issue is we are talking about people in love wanting to be together and make themselves family. The goal is goodness all around, there isn't a side to this that harms anyone. So what is the problem?

[Beachal]

I feel they should be allowed to get married, and I don't care if it' in a church, courthouse or wherever. I hate when people spout that allowing gay marriage takes away from the sanctity of mine. Bullshit. My opinion: who cares, they love each other, want to be committed to each other, then fine. I may not be a super religious person, but I do have my beliefs, and I think things should be more open to interpretation. God may consider homosexuality a sin, but what about all the other sins in the Bible that are committed daily? Do people that commit those sins have their rights taken away? No. So why should we withhold those same rights to someone supposedly committing a different sin?

Blah. I'm nowhere near as articulate as I'd like to be. But I honestly feel gays should be able to marry, and have the same legal rights. I just don't see it ever fully being possible in this close minded world.

[Anon for the first time ever!]

Never posted here before but have read many times -
I am all for gay marriage. My father is not. I don't *agree* with his reasoning, but being a hardcore homophobe his reasoning isn't isolated. He owns a bar in a very redneck part of middle america and there is a general consensus that...

"If "the gays" can start marrying, if we change the definition of marriage, then what is to stop other changes of marriage? Adults to children? People to animals? Polygamy?"

[Heather]

I haven't read all the comments so forgive me if I'm just restating what somebody else said.

Marriage is no longer just about religion. If marriage was something that only related to their religion, fine, I can see the "religious" arguement.

However, in most (all?) countries marriage is now about health care, dependent care, beneficiaries, etc.

Why shouldn't gay people have the same rights to shared health plans and being named as beneficiaries? There is no logical reason why not.

I live in Massachusetts, where we are little more "liberal" than most states in the union and this is till causing a lot of conflict.

Of course, a very good gay friend of mine is opposed to gay marriage. Well, actually he's opposed to marriage...period. So maybe he doesn't count :)

[Linda]

The reason I am opposed to gay marriage is because I am a Christian. When 'one' chooses to be a christian, 'one' chooses to live by God's law. Marriage is a gift given by god to a man and a woman, solidified as a covenant with God- a marriage ceremony. As a Christian, I have no right to judge non-christians- only love them. So a gay couple who chooses to live together and be unioned is fine with me- but don't call it marriage- that is a disgrace to God. Non christians should not be married- gay or straight. Unioned with the same legal rights of course- but it is fundamentally different. Marriage is a covenant between God, man and woman- period. If people understood this more clearly we would not have the divorce rates we have. I will never judge non-christians choices in life as wrong or right because it it none of my business, but when a non christian claims religious titles, I will vehemently oppose. God says Christians are to judge only other Christians to keep us accountable and any one who is a non-believer we are simply to love and not judge.
Just my two cents,
Linda

[jette]

According to the Christian religion homosexuality is wrong. Being a Christian, this is an issue I struggle with, because I believe in human rights, and equality. I will admit that I do feel a slight 'oddness' to the idea of two same sex people getting married, but I have absolutely no problem or gripe with gay people at all. They are individuals just like any one of us, and being gay is just a part of who they are. Everyone should have equal choices. It should be THEIR choice. The focus shouldn't be on allowing the act of gay people getting married (a gay wedding), but more on allowing two INDIVIDUALS to join legally in a committed and binding relationship with the person they love, and (more importantly) allowing the couple to enjoy the same rights as any other couple after the marriage. Let THEM make the moral choice.

[KLynn]

Most of my views have already been stated more eloquently than I ever could. I feel the same way about this issue as I do about many others...what other people choose to do with their lives and in their bedrooms is their business. As long as they aren't hurting anyone else, especially if it makes them happy, leave them alone. Committed couples deserve the same rights and respect, no matter what gender combination they are.

Bob and I are good friends with a gay couple. They've been together longer than Bob and I have. They are good people. If marriage is ever legalized for them here in the deep south U.S. (ha ha ha), Bob and I will likely be invited to the wedding, and will be happy to go.

I am very discouraged and embarrased by the level of intolerance in the US. Hopefully, the recent shake-up in the congress will make some positive headway.

[Jessy]

Linda said: "Non christians should not be married- gay or straight."

REALLY? I have never, ever heard this argument.

Aside from the fact that it's patently offensive and smugly superior, it's completely not founded in the Bible. Marriage predates Christianity according to the Christian Bible - see lots of weddings in the Old Testament and the Wedding at Cana. Or, you know, Mary and Joseph. None of the married parties were Christians, and there is no hint that even a strict literal reading of the Bible suggests that marriage ought to be limited to Christians. Did you mean marriage in a Christian church? Or in a Christian ceremony?

Also, non-Christians don't have higher divorce rates than Christians do, so limiting marriage to Christians wouldn't, as Linda asserts, touch the divorce rate.

[Tif]

My feelings have gone back and forth with this issue, running the gamut from vehemently opposing it to supporting same sex marriage. My view actually changed while I was pregnant with my son last year. I would NEVER want to deny my son the right to get married if he was gay. If he was in a stable relationship, he should be afforded the same rights as his father and I.

For the record, I am Lutheran, baptized and confirmed.

[JennyK]

I'll never understand how same-sex marriages would be any kind of threat to my own marriage. That argument completely baffles me.

To deny the same rights to committed homosexual couples is simply discriminatory. Plain and simple. I'm aghast that my own state voted to amend it's constitution to include a "marriage amendment." Pathetic.

Thank God the recent US elections and changes in Congress will probably prevent the same thing from happening on a national scale.

[Jaqa]

As a lesbian who's co-parenting a 2 year old with my partner of 12 years, I was very interested to read the comments on this post.

I want to thank Angie, who wrote: "While I firmly believe homosexuality violates God's law, I also believe that no human government has any rational basis for denying homosexuals the right to marry."

I truly appreciate her ability to maintain her deeply-felt religious beliefs without feeling those beliefs should be codified into law. This to me is the essence of the strength of democracy - the ability to respectfully acknowledge our differences and find reasonable ways to coexist.

I do hope that some day I will have the chance to marry my partner for two simple reasons. One is to have access to the same legal protections of any straight couple. The second is to ensure that our daughter never has to feel her government views her parents as deviant second-class citizens.

Being gay is a non-issue in our lives - its one part of who we are, but it is certainly not our defining characteristic. I often wish that people could find a way past the "ew" factor - the mental image that they immediately conjure when they hear someone's gay. Because once you get beyond that, our lives are no different then yours, chock-full of checkbooks to be balanced and snotty toddler noses to be wiped. Giving my family access to the same rights most families take for granted harms no one, and puts my gayness right back where it belongs - as something between me, my partner and our family.

Thanks Tertia for raising this issue and thanks to the commenters for having a respectful dialogue.