Careers and motherhood

**Saying this upfront so that no one gets the panties twisted – I am G E N E R A L I Z I N G here, speaking in broad brush strokes, k? I know not ALL women feel this way, or ALL men do that, or ALL men do this, or whatever. Just generalizing based on MY experience. Oh and yes, I also DO acknowledge that SAHM’s have a tough time, this is not about who has it worse, this is about the career/motherhood dilemma, k? Every one on the same page? Goooood**

Here’s a question to those of you who manage to be career focused and at the same time be an involved mother – how the hell do you do it??

My friend Bee and I were chatting about this topic the other day. We were marvelling at how some mothers managed to be successful career women who climbed the corporate ladder, who worked late, travelled etc. Because it is damn difficult to focus on your career when you are a mother, especially a mother to young children. Perhaps it does get easier when the kids get older, or perhaps these women have wonderful husbands who take care of the kids.

One of my customers is a woman who is pretty high up in her organization, a big multinational corporation. She travels extensively, she works 14-hour days. And her youngest child is 5. How the hell does she do it?

Who bathes the kids? Who feeds them?

I can’t work late. I can’t go to work functions. I can’t come in at sparrows fart and work 14-hour days. I have to go home and take care of my children.

I am the only woman in the team I work in; there are five of us, including my boss.  Before the kids, I used to work long hours, come in early etc. I can’t do that any more. I don’t think they hold it against me, I think they understand, but the crazy thing is that each of them have wives that stay at home. So they can socialize at functions, they can work late etc. Because the wife is home doing the job I need to leave early for.

I think as liberal as the corporate world claims to be, there is a bias against women and especially mothers. I have experienced this myself – when people hear you have young kids they are not that keen to take you on, because they know, rightly so, that often the mother is the one that has to take off early if her child has a doctors appointment etc. Yes, I am sure that some fathers do this, but in my experience it is mostly the mothers who have to juggle the two roles. I think that secretly, most men would rather employ a man than a mother to young kids.

I am exceptionally fortunate in that my manager, and my company, recognises that I have this dual responsibility. They have been amazingly supportive, arranging business trips so that I am away from home as little as possible, or allowing me to leave work early to take the kids to an appointment. I am really lucky, I know many others aren’t.

The other day at lunch, the guys I work with were talking about what they wanted to do next in terms of careers, business opportunities, start ups etc. They are all go getter kind of guys, people who have owned their own businesses. They asked me what I wanted to do next, where I saw myself in five years time. And it was then that I realized once again, how different it is for some/most fathers. These guys have the luxury of choice – of being able to go out there and start up a new business, work long hours, travel etc. Where do I see myself in five years? To have enough money so that I don’t HAVE to work. Or to have a job that allowed me to spend as much time as possible with the kids as well. I know that in order to climb the career ladder I would need to be a lot more aggressive in terms of time spent, travel, studying etc. And right now, that would mean more time away from my kids.

I just can’t do it. I hate that I feel as if other people judge me for it – as if I am not driven enough, as if I am settling in terms of career. I’ve become a bit of a crusader about working moms at work. It’s probably a fruitless exercise, but I want the men, especially the men in management positions to acknowledge that saying you can’t work late, or that you can’t accept that promotion, that it’s not about not wanting to work hard, or about dedication, it’s about having to divide up your day between work and your kids, and that the kids need their mom as well, especially when they are so little. (And besides the kids needing to see me, I need to see them! I can’t imagine seeing them for only a few minutes, if at all, for days on end) I want them to acknowledge that it’s damn hard being a working mom. As I said, it’s probably a fruitless exercise.

It is hard to have a career and be an involved mother, it really is. How do you deal with it? Those of you who have managed to be ambitious, driven, career-focused, how did / do you manage the balance?

Edited to add:  I've done a poll exploring this issue - I just want to make the distinction between working / having a job (in order to get a salary at the end of the month) and being career focused / climbing the corporate ladder etc.

And another thing – some people HAVE to work. Yes they do. Do NOT come with that bullshit that every one has the luxury of choosing whether they want to work or not. Some people HAVE to work in order to put food on the table. Just talk to any single mom, or alternatively, come to South Africa and see what it is like to live without two salaries, or even one. So, none of this BS judgement of others who have to work to earn a salary. This is a discussion about climbing the corporate ladder.

Comments

[Jenn in AK]

It's the rare woman that can focus on her career and be a good mom to her kids, good wife to her husband. The RARE woman. The woman you speak about who has a 5 year old...IMHO, she's not a good mom at all. She should have chosen motherhood or career before she had the kid. Now the kid's here and is being overlooked for the career.

I work my own business, on my own time and stay home with my daughter. Do we go without some things? You bet, unless I make the money for it. I'm going to visit my mom next month with DD because Mom bought the $700 ticket today. It was more than I had planned on spending on a ticket and extras that big aren't happening this month.

The whole idea that women can be both mom and career woman - to me - is crap. Yes, some have to do it in the short term (like you), but others who make their career their long term focus...that's selfish.

I know they say it's the quality of the time and not the quantity you spend with kids. I only agree with that to an extent. It has to be a balance.

Jenn

[b]

Everyone has the luxury of choice.

Pre-child you chose to have children. Post-child you are choosing to *horrors* ratchet back the corporate world in honor of that choice.

All you can be is who and what you CHOSE to be now.

and if others CHOOSE to judge you, you still have a choice....to live YOUR life in spite of what THEY think.

It's isn't their fault they think they can judge you.

Oh wait...it is....however, you can CHOOSE to just ignore the assholes.

i have a job too. it isn't my priority anymore and i am not a stay at home mom. my priority is the people i mentor on my off time, the research that i do that will help them (and me)learn and grow on our CHOSEN way of life.

I take all kinds of grief from everyone everyday. Makes my hair fall out, i think, but i am not going to let them or anyone else call the shots in my life.

i have to support myself and my boss values my input greatly. i offered to quit a couple of time and i thought he was going to have a heart attack right there.

so. i didn't. honestly, i was relieved.

this is pretty stilted, sorry, but i think you understand....

[b]

sorry, should read 'not a mom', period.

[Laurie]

Jenn, I have to disagree with you. Making a judgment that Tertia's client is "not a good mom" on a two-sentence description of her life is unfair. Isn't it more supportive to moms everywhere to assume things are good instead of assuming they aren't? Maybe the (assumed) two hours a day this mom spends with her kids are exceptional. Maybe she has a nanny who helps top off the "mother cup o' love" her children need. Maybe her husband stays at home full time. Maybe she's the sole support of her family. Who knows? If we are judgmental about each other, our bosses and co-workers and society in general will continue to be judgmental about us. Why does being a mom who earns an outside income mean there is a point at which we are good or bad? I think it is a day-by-day personal sliding scale for each of us.

Tertia, I have twins too - about to turn 5 (the bottle poppers!). I have a professional position within a pretty big corporation. I'm lucky - my female boss has twins that are a bit older. She's very supportive because she's BTDT so knows a lot about what I go through to balance work, husband and kids. I moved to this company from another company that I loved but that was much more stressful and not as flexible - I had to, to keep my family and myself sane. I'm the major breadwinner so there is no question about whether I work or not. If I don't, there goes the health insurance, the 401K plan, and the college fund. I leave the house at 7:30 and rush to get home at 5:30 - and work after everyone goes to bed or before they get up, if I need to. I also have a nanny that is unbelievably wonderful. She gives my kids her all but respects that I'm the mom. My kids adore her and I'm happy and fortunate that they do. Am I "letting someone else raise my kids?” Some folks think so - but I look at it more like I've invited someone who can give my kids a different perspective and things that I wouldn't be able to even if I stayed at home full time. (Come to think of it, saying I'm letting someone else raise my kids is just as ridiculous has saying a SAHM is selfish and controlling because she doesn't.) What I've found, after five years of juggling, is that you develop an evolving sense of what works for your family and for you personally at that point in time. When the kids are babies, they need you all the time. At five, a little less. When they get into grade school and get even older, my guess is that my yearning to be with them every second will cut back in parallel with the their decreasing need to be with me all the time. The scale of work vs. family is always tipping one way or the other, any you just have to accept that. If you and your family are, over the long haul, in balance, then whatever you're doing it right.

[Kathy]

OK - I'll jump in here. I've said it before -- I was a better mom because I worked! I love my daughter to the bottom of my soul, but I would have gone crazy being with her 24/7. My patience would have worn thin, I would not have been patient with her, and she would have suffered. She had excellent day care (Family the first year of her life, then an excellent in-home care giver until pre-school.) Her dad took her to the babysitter in the morning, and I picked her up in the afternoon. When I got her, I was delighted to see her. We spent quality time together every night. I firmly believe in my case that quality was far more important than quantity. So, those would say "you let other people raise your child." I say, I had other people HELP me raise my child -- big difference. She is a better person for it. She learned to interact with other adults (in addition to learning how to get along with other children.) She is a well-adjusted adult now. I asked her not too long ago if she felt somehow slighted because I worked, and she assured me that it left no scars at all!

I better stop now before I cross that line into SAHM vs working mom, but I will say one thing first: SAHMs, I do not judge you for the decisions you made; I commend you for doing what is/was best for you and your family. I ask you to give me the same courtesy, please do not judge me for doing what was best for me and my family!

Bottom line, yes, one can pursue a career and be a good mom. It just takes balance and planning!

[Boulder]

Why do we as women continue to judge other women? Just because someone has a perspective that deviates from our own choices? That is a shit thing for one woman to do to another. Why not take the "wow, I am so very fortunate to have the ability to live MY life the way I think is best for my family," and leave it at that?

Tertia, you are a trailblazer there in your office, and some mom who comes along, after you managed to move on, will be the welcome beneficiary of your efforts. I applaud you for that. And I applaud your boss for recognizing that you are very motivated to give this tough situation your best effort. Acknowledging, out loud and in writing, your difficulty in strking the balance makes you that much more human. And gives other moms who work outside their homes each day because they have no other choice, like you do not, to strike a semblance of hope because they will know that they are not alone in the world trying as you are.

I think many moms who work outside the home are conflicted about how to maximize their "face" time with office types who determine their performance reviews, etc. while still striking a balance that gives them the "face" time with their families. A woman's work is never easy no matter when it starts, or where it takes place, that is for certain.

I think an interesting question is how many SA companies go out of their way to make their companies hospitable for working moms? With things like on-site nurseries, and other creative childcare incentives? Many a US magazine has rankings about "Best Places to be a Working Parent," and "Top Companies for Working Moms," etc. It would be interesting to note which things aid in ranking a company in the US, and whether those types of things are at all fashionable in SA.

I really must say how much I admire you for your honesty, and for going to work each morning knowing how much you would rather spend time the with Kate & Adam, if only you could. Some day, my friend, some day.

[Blondie]

I think I chose the answer in the poll that perfectly describes the way I feel. Working & being a mother means that both will suffer a little. My priorities area bit skewed at times and I have the midget racing somewhere in the back of my mind...or running literally across my office desk at home.

I don't want to jump in an argue with anyone or be a voice of dissent. I think I could do better in all aspects. Right now I'm looking for a better job to help me climb up the ladder again...

Tertia, I do think you've got an awesome employer and that you're doing a great job managing parenting/work. Its not easy...no two ways about it...its a tough road to travel. You're always tired and wondering when your next day off or vacation is. I think it gets a bit easier as the kids get older. I know my son is needy but overall he's very independant and I have more freedoms.

Stay G & D dear Tertia and kiss the babes for me! Hell, kiss Marko too! ;-p lol And give Rose a big appreciative hug...Ya'll are so lucky to have such a beautiful lady helping out with the kiddos. ;-p lol

Ciao!

[Liz]

I worked after having my first child. I wasn't in any high position, but it was still work, time away from my son. And hubby and I still had to attend work functions, etc. Fortunately we had different working schedules. He went to work earlier than I did, so when he got home, he would take care of the our son, cook, and do all kinds of stuff around the house until I got home. I'm a very lucky woman. If we do have to attend work functions, we are lucky that we can drop son with my parents on weekends.

But that was an 8-hour day job. We didn't have to travel, work overtime. I can't imagine to work 14-hours trying to climb the corp. ladder with a young child at home.

[Kim]

But surely those men you talked about do live off one income, if their wives don't work? They may have the "luxury of choice" but they support their partners. Would you want Marko to stay home?

[andrea]

I gave up my "career" for my family- yes I still work full time in a job I enjoy but unfortunatly one of us had to give up climbing the ladder and it was me!

[Sassy]

I've posted about this before I think, so to summarise I'd say it can't be done. I think it's very healthy for everyone for the primary carer to work at least a few hours per week while the child(ren) are in some form of care, but when the primary carer is working 12 hour days I think the kids and parents both end up losing.

What angers me is that I was told I could have a career, I could be Prime Minister, I could head a multi-national all while being the perfect wife and mother. I think if you want to go for the big jobs they should be your priority but who can prioritise over their children? What will the children lose?

Saying that I'm a 21 year old infertile with no kids who has suspended her career and her education so her husband can work 14 hour days and the house can stay clean. I get criticised for that from everyone.

[Melissa4444]

I'm a SAHM. So I don't know that my comments bear any weight in this discussion. BUT. I don't know how you do it! Any of you. I don't know how you manage to juggle both career/job with motherhood, and being a wife. Sadly, I think the way you probably do it is by sacrificing 'you' time. (Though, I don't know that SAHMs get much of that either).

I just know, that for the most part, you seem to do it so well. But my heart breaks for you. I have a lot of friends who have to work. And I know the torment they feel. And I wish that it was not necessary.

I don't agree with you T that it is a fruitless quest, to try to make people more aware of issues for working Mums. I'll bet women who campaigned for women's votes etc wondered about that too.

Maybe, one day, things will be different. And people (especially other Mums, who I think can be the most judgemental of all!)will be more sensitive to the balance you are trying to achieve.

Until then, I'll have to do. My hat goes off to you all. Seriously. I don't know how you do it.

[Faith]

Tertia-- that workaholic woman with the 5 year old? She's a friggin' liar. Don't let people like that fool you. There are only so many hours in a day. And kids who have to go to school have to go to bed early, soooooo.....regardless of what she says she's doing at home, exactly WHEN is she seeing her child? Women who sling this line of B.S. make it hard for REAL working mothers like you. They make the real mom's feel like they are less competent because they can't stay late and come in early and fly to Timbuktu AND look like a million bucks AND somehow manage to read a book to their little ones and tuck them in bed at night and make their lunches and attend their soccer games too. And I think they get their jollys off of deceiving the rest of us into thinking we are less competent than they are. But do the math. If she's doing all she says she's doing.....somebody else is taking care of her kid, and that's that.

Now when and if you ever can find the time, you HAVE to read this New York magazine article:

EMPIRE OF THE ALPHA MOM: Does the world need a Martha Stewart of parenting? Isabel Kallman would like to submit her resume.

Once you read about this....oh let me not call her a 4 letter word. But once you read about this chick who's starting a how-to cable company for mothers-- you'll never buy into this "Alpha Mom" crap again. (And yes, I do have a scowl on my face right now. This crap makes me angry.)

Best wishes, as always.

Faith
SAHM who supports Working Moms.
http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/news/features/12026/index.html

[Faith]

....and by the way. I voted that you can have a career AND be a mom-- but both the mom role and the career role suffers a little. Few things in life are perfect. Even being a SAHM isn't perfect. You do the best you can with what you've got, and you make the most of it. But you can't do the best you can with what you've got if you aren't at least HONEST about what you've got.

[ericalil]

I'm cringing a bit as I read your post, Tertia, because if I'm lucky to have a few kids (I'm finally adopting, to hell with this pregnancy bullshit!) soon, I will feel as you do. I also will HAVE to work, to pay the mortgage and bills. Maybe some day, my husband will make enough for me to go to part-time or stay at home.

So, I know I'll feel as you do, and all I can say is you are a GREAT mother for trying to maximize the amount of time you have with the kids, there will be time when they are much older for you to accelerate your career goals. It's very tough, but I think these women who work the long hours and climb the corporate ladder now, while their kids are little, are doing so at the expense of those little tots.

My cousin is a the top of her company. While her kids were little, she only saw them on the weekends! She travelled monday-friday. Can you imagine? Those kids were STARVED for her attention on the weekends, they couldn't get enough of her! She had a stay at home husband and a nanny, and yet the kids craved their mom's love. It was painful to watch. She later divorced, and because of her career focus, she wanted joint custody, on the weekends. Her ex-husband still sees the kids more than she does, but she doesn't travel as much any more.

I'm not judging her lifestyle, it's kind of the exact reverse of the "typical" scenario. Those are her choices, but I know I am not as driven as her to succeed in the workplace, and if I could at all stay home with kids more, I would do it in a heartbeat.

OK, I"m rambling, sorry for the length. You're doing a great job, T, it must be tough when there aren't other working mom's on your team, but if anyone can get them to understand your situation, it's you!

erica

[kelly]

I think it can be done. This is not a judgment against anyone, but my husband is a huge partcipater at home, I have to work late, well then he does bath and bedtime. I have to work on a Saturday (like right this moment?) then he gets the stuff at home and vice versa. At the same time because I don't have a problem working late, schmoozing, coming in early and working weekends I pretty much can cut out early to go do things at my son's school.

With that said, yes it is immensely easier in some ways when they get older. i WAH doing consulting until T was 3 and I don't think i could have done it different. But my job doesn't suffer (i get excellent reviews, merit increases and promotions) and neither does my home life. But I have one child and a husband who has as much flexibility and desire to do the little things that i do.

[kelly]

I should have added it does make it immensley easier that my son starts school very late for the US in general (9 AM) so we in general all get up a little later so he can stay up later so only if I get home v.v. late do I miss seeing him. And if I know that is the case I cut out and go eat lunch with him at school. So yes, it can happen but it has to be the right mix of all the variables, I happen to have just struck gold with it :)

[barbie]

Tertia, I also have twins and I do work also-part time. I gave up my career, or should say put it on hold, once my babies were born. My salary wasn't big enough to put 2 babies into daycare or hire a nanny - I would end up working to pay the daycare/nanny. But, I HAD to work to help pay for bills, mortgage, etc.

Right now, I do have it easy. I work really early in the morning until my husband goes to work. As soon as I walk in the door, he walks out the door. We have just enough time to relay the morning information (what time did they get up, etc) and a quick kiss on the cheek and away he goes off to work.

Do I like my job? NO I absolutely hate it. I gave up a great job (I'm still with the same company - they were able to offer me a different position - something flexible around my husbands work schedule). I'm lucky my husband is so hands on with the babies and has no problems looking after them until I come home. I gave up a job that I loved to do something that I hate. But it was the sacrifice I made to avoid the high daycare costs and still be home with the babies. I don't regret it at all and I know that once the babies are a bit older, I can go and find something that I like a little better.

Tertia,I know it's not easy being away from the babies, but you are doing what's best for you and your family. Like my company, it sounds like your company is flexible too. You don't want to go to all the extra activities outside of work, or work all that overtime you used to because you want to see your babies. And your company understands that. Hat's off to them!!

In the end, it is what works best for your family. You have a wonderful person looking after your babies (you are so lucky you have Rose!) who loves them just as much as you do. And YOU are still very much a part of your babies lives.

[Beth]

Hi, Delurking for this great topic. What really struck me about your post is that the five guys that you work with have wives who stay home. I assume this means that they make more money than you do and that sucks. You should be getting equal pay for equal work. Women have come a long way in the workplace but we still have a long way to go.

[Jessy]

Absolutely, it's possible to do both, but in my experience and observations, there need to be two conditions in place for it to happen relatively easily: 1. The job has to have a fair amount of flexibility, and 2. the traditional family roles have to be redefined within the context of the parents' situations.

As an example, one woman I know (an academic) did the following: 1. while she was pregnant, collected a TON of data in lab; 2. while on maternity leave, wrote up the data and got a bunch of publications; 3. while her husband took his paternity leave (is this common in SA?), returned to work and really focused on her career. In some ways, she was able to use the system well to her advantage, because the time off for maternity leave didn't count toward her "tenure clock" but she was able to spit out some papers during it anyway, thus improving her chances of being promoted. It wouldn't have worked, probably, if her husband (an attorney) hadn't been willing to take a similar 'ding' to his career.

[ann]

disclaimer: i have not read any other responses.also, this got much larger than i wanted it to.

i've worked for a very large international financial services company since before i had children. i was the same as you - very motivated and driven before they were born (i have 2 singletons, 6 & 3 now).
after i had my first son, i realized and for the most part, accepted, that i could not have both - be career focused (again, not just hold a "job") and motherhood - that they were mutually exclusive.
with that said, i've simply aspired to be the very best at both my job (note, not my "career") & at motherhood. once i accepted that i would not be blazing a trail to the top because it would come at the expense of my children, my work-life balance became much easier. now i just concentrate on being the best employee that i can possibly be - doing a great job when i am there, occassionally volunteering for extra work and just generally trying to make smart decisions to keep my work-life balance tolerable for me. ironically enough, i've just been identified as being "high-potential" by our european management. (and it is true irony, but that's a different story)

to me, my true "career" is my kids and motherhood. in my day job (that pays me an inordinate amount of money and has some amazing benefits, but for the most part just helps the rich get richer), i am not researching to find a cure for cancer or doing anything that is going to leave this world a better place. my most important legacy in this life is going to be my children.
what i've seen in financial services, the people who make it to the top (be it male OR female) make incredible money - but are at the whim of the corporate trends -- they can be terminated/let go in the blink of an eye. i refuse to give my soul to a corporation that has no loyalty to me -- i prefer to give it to my kids.
this is such a great topic. i've found that it's not easy being a good employee & a good mother, and unfortunately, it just gets harder as the kids get older.
best to you.

[Leslie]

When my kids were tiny my husband and I ran a home-based business. It gave us the flexibility to both be around and involved other than the third of the time he was traveling. I didn't travel as much and could rely on my parents for help when I had to. That worked very well for us but obviously most people don't have the option to make that work.

These days he works a more conventional job and I'm self-employed. It gives me the flexibility to carry more of the doctors appointments, etc. Have I put my career on the back burner? Yes, but not in the way you'd expect because I'm an artist and the years working in business with my husband were a necessary diversion from making art because I also like to eat, have a roof over my head, clothing, etc.

I think it's hard for a woman to have a full career largely because everyone assumes that she's the only one who has to make all the adjustments to deal with childcare anad running a household. We've really had our noses rubbed in it the last several months because I broke my ankle and cannot drive, cook, clean, etc. With only one of us able to do all that stuff AND work it all falls behind. For us the only really functional way to support two careers and three kids is a highly organized dance and it turns out to pretty fragile - one big interruption like my ankle or family illness last spring throws it all into a mess.

[Judy]

Tertia - I come here, day after day, because I am simply in awe at what you do. You exhaust me with everything you have going on - and I admire you so much for holding a job you enjoy while still raising those two little beans! I think simply getting in the car, going to a job and coming home several hours later is so admirable, never mind what you accomplish while you are gone! I think what you do means a lot to many out there who are trying to make it work as well. You come here, you tell of your successes and your trials, and people READ about them and learn from what you say.

You, my friend, are a pioneer. A role model. A damn fine mother. a GODDESS!

[fisherwife]

Don't play the blame game. As mothers, we do that all day long. My mother blamed herself for a congenital defect that I had at birth. Never mind that she wasn't aware of it. Never mind that it doesn't slow me down any.

T., many above are right in saying that the comparison game is based on a lie. I don't believe that anyone can have it all. Money certainly helps with the issues that you face...but it wouldn't eliminate them. Time is finite here on earth. There's only 24 in a day. Sleep is a necessary thing, girl. It sounds a little like you need some more of that since before the babies were even born! I've followed your story since your second trimester. I have empathy for your situation. This is one SAHM that doesn't judge you, sister.

[Suzanne]

Good for you rallying for WOHM! I don't envy at all women that must work away from their babies, I do understand it, but it has to be awfully hard. I've been toying with the idea of getting a job working the midnight shift, when my babe would be asleep the whole time, but that still makes me sad that I wouldn't be there to snuggle in the early morn!

And FWIW, I'm a SAHM but my husband works 2 jobs for us to make ends meet. One pays the household bills, the other pays our debts and some luxuries. Sometimes he leaves when baby is asleep and comes home after she is asleep and it is ROUGH on him. He recently went away for an overnight trip and he had tears in his eyes as he was leaving. For him, it is hard to be away and he wishes he could be with her more. She is 100% daddy's girl and they have the most amazing relationship. So I'm sure to some extent men feel the pulling at their heartstrings, but it is not "socially acceptable" for them to acknowledge that. You know what I mean?