Life – my view

hI should have put my opinion on my post, but I didn’t want to influence any one’s answer.

Like many of you, my view on when life begins, and abortion, has changed as the reality of life has happened to me. It is so easy so speak on a hypothetical level. Until you are faced with the reality of the situation yourself.

For those of you who don’t know, this is not a theoretical debate for me. Unfortunately.  **WARNING - Not for sensitive viewers, it is about selective reduction**

When does life begin? I agree with what a few of you said, I think rather than life beginning at a particular point, it is more of a process, a continuum. Does it begin at conception? Not always. Not all conceptions can ever, should ever, will ever result in a live birth. Really. Does it begin at implantation – perhaps – that point makes more sense to me than conception. When you see a heart beat? Yes, maybe, except that many foetuses are lost between seeing a heartbeat and 12 weeks.

If I had to pick a time, I would say life begins at implantation. That is just how I feel. I haven’t always felt like this though. Since I have been pregnant, and lost babies, seeing them on the scan, moving their arms and legs, even at 12 weeks, that feels like life to me.

Before infertility, I was pro-choice. I still am pro-choice, but with a far heavier heart.

I do believe that if there is any risk to the mother’s health, then yes, the mother should have the choice. If there is a risk to the child’s health, then yes. If there are difficult circumstances, whatever they might be, then yes. However, I don’t believe in abortion as a method of birth control. That doesn’t feel right for me, that feels too disrespectful, too flippant.

I believe that people, women, have the right to decide what is best for them. I also believe that life begins at stage of implantation. So by inference I must therefore believe that it is a women’s right to decide to end the life of her unborn child.

Which feels terrible to say. Terrible. And yet, isn’t that exactly what I did?

In an ideal world, in lala land, no one would have to face these decisions, things would be simple. In lala land unwanted pregnancies would result in beautiful babies being handed over to adoptive parents, or perhaps in lala land there would be no ‘unwanted’ pregnancies. In lala land there would be no sick babies, or dangerous pregnancies.

But lala land doesn’t exist, and we each need to deal with our own reality in the best way we know how.

It is easy to speak with a sense of conviction born of wonderful (thank God!) innocence, of inexperience, of hypothetical ‘if it was me’’; it is far harder to have to make that decision when real life happens. I’m not saying that you would do things differently if you had to face the dreaded reality, I am just saying that often real life has a nasty way of laughing at your plans / convictions.

It’s not an easy topic this. Thank you for the intelligent, honest debate.

PS I've tried to do a revolving poll again - two polls that change each time the page is loaded.  It doesn't always work, some times you have to hit refresh to view the new poll.

Comments

[L.]

Thank you for doing this poll and discussion!

[L.]

FYI, NY Times has an article today on abortion in America -- http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/18/national/18abortion.html?hp=&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1127023616-ogc7ZGafA/KRtkbLtKI+UA

[Betsy]

I've lived through SR and the pain is as you described. You cry, you wonder, you try to survive. I had blood and cramping that night and I began to think it was all for naught, but we came through it and I now have a 15 day old son... Thank you for sharing your story, Tertia.

[gretchen]

T-
I just read about your experience with SR. I 've been reading your blog for some time, but was unaware of that experience. I sobbed while I read, what a horrible decision you were faced with. I admire your strength and your candor with talking about something so difficult, personal and controversial. You continue to educate me and open my eyes to so many topics that I never thought about. Thanks!And so sorry you had to go thru such a heart wrenching experience.

[L.]

A woman I must met said she was totally pro-life, voted only for pro-life politicians, etc. Then I found out she had done SR. While I really felt her pain for her horrible, difficult decision, I thought it was very inconsistent. To her, SR wasn`t really an abortion because of the circusmtances, which I thought wasn`t calling a spade a spade. Oh, it`s not okay for women whose contraception fails to kill an embryo if they feel they can`t face a pregnancy, even if they have health risks, but it`s okay for you to do what you did? I never argued this point with her -- obviously SR is not something you argue about.

[21stCenturyMom]

I believe that the percentage of abortions of any description that are used for birth control (and that includes SR and the morning after pill) is minuscule compared to the number of abortions performed because the pregnancy was totally accidental, unexpected or unsupportable (due to health or financial reasons). Therefore, we must have the choice - always. This is a legal issue, not an emotional issue and it is one that all women everywhere must fight for.

My heart goes out to all women who have to terminate a pregnancy for any reason. Very, very few of them feel completely good about it and I honestly believe that for most it is a heartbreaking choice.

[mollyv]

Quote:"This is a legal issue, not an emotional issue and it is one that all women everywhere must fight for." Please do not include ALL WOMEN in your statements. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I, for one, will not fight for what you call a "legal issue." Please do not include me in your opinion.

T- I love you and love that you are willing to put it all out there. I'm sorry if I sound pissy, but I can't be included in statements such as these.

[Lily]

I personally believe it's a life as soon as conception occurs...BUT

I still believe 100% in the right to choose.

My baby was my baby from that moment- but that's not to say that I believe any child should be born to a mother who would prefer to abort it. However much of a baby it may be, it's better off being ended asap than to go thru a life of neglect, abuse, or being bounced around from home to home where no one wants it. There are too many unwanted kids. No more need to be brought into the world.

[MollieBee]

T, I just wanted to say, you've come so far. You were broken seemingly beyond repair, yet you survived and thrived. You are a hero to so many of us.

I will never forget your beautiful Ben (and the other babies), and I wish with all my might that you will see them again when your time here is done.

[Blondie]

T,
I don't have any poetic words. I think like MollieBee said it...you have survived and thrived. You have such beautiful children and from the words you convey, a beautiful soul.
Thank you for sharing your deepest pain & sorrow with us all...

[Janine]

T, I respect you so much. You've come so far and can talk with such authority about these issues. Well done for writing so well about such a difficult topic.

[Judy]

Thanks for putting yourself out there for us to get to know and to love. I appreciate you AND your writing!

[Wylie]

I'm not going to say when I think life begins, because I don't know if that makes a difference. Anyone who has ever had an abortion knows no matter how much the choice was the right one for them, it's still painful and there's still an awareness of the child that could have been.

I am pro-choice and always have been. I don't think that unwanted children should be brought into the world. I don't think Gawd or Mother Nature would demand it. It's other people who demand it out of a misguided sense of representing one of the aforementioned. And that's just not appropriate.

Like infertility, it's an experience that others might apply a vivid and sympathetic imagination to and come up with a reasonable understanding. But if you've never been pregnant, alone and all too aware of the impossibility of carrying on, you can't really say how you'd personally react and therefore, you can't honestly tell someone else how they should react.

[CHRISTINE]

A very wise OB/GYN who performed terminations once told he that she had never encountered someone who WANTED an induced abortion, just ones who had come to the conclusion it was the best option for them and theirs at that point in their life.
Frankly, as long as there are dangerous, unplanned or "unwanted" pregnancies there will always be abortions. There always have. Terminations have been documented going back to early Egyptian Civilizations.
To close the door on legal abortions opens the door for the "back street" abortionists, ad all the pain, misery, and deaths they bring. That alone makes it imperative to keep them legal and accessible.
A few years back at Congressional Hearings in Washington an 84 year old man recounted how while living in a squalid Chicago tenement his mother collapsed while serving dinner to her family of eight. She died the next day, the results of a "botched" illegal bortion. This man begged that this never happen again.
I totally agree.
As to when life begins - who know? No one knows. Not physicians, not clergy - no one. I am reminded of something my Grandmother once told me.
As a young immingrant bride, also living in a tenement, she gave birth to 2 babies in quick sucession She spent a lot of time at the lcal Settlement House. There, she said, she learned good nutrition, American culture, how to stretch her money, and such. Through the Settlement House she also had herslf sterilized at the ripe old age of 22. Now, this was a woman who would have welcomed 20 babies (as some of her relatives back in Ireland DID have), and more importantly,was a very staunch Roman Catholic. I asked her how she reconciled allowing herself to be sterilized with the rules and teaching of her Church. She first said she didn't "allow" it - she requested it. And then very quietly but firmly she told me what she believed at that time, and still did - "It was between me and my God, and no one else. He will know that I did what I believed to be the best thing, and he will understand".
I wish everyone faced with such decisions could believe this way. You do what you think is best, you do what you think is right.

[Rachel]

Life begins at the moment of conception. At this MOMENT there is a new being with a new set of unique DNA. I believe all of our debate on this topic is just a convenient way for us not to feel guilty terminating that life, should we choose to, by abortion.

My two cents.

Rachel

[Carrie Jo]

My best friend from highschool got pregnant earlier this year by accident with a man she is dating. She chose to have an abortion for several reasons. While I understand them and am pro-choice I, like you, don't believe that it should be used as a form of birth control, but her parents would have tried to force her to marry the man, and/or keep the baby which she wasn't prepared to do. But it still hurts me everytime I think about it, especially since she knows my husband and I would have been more than happy to adopt her baby. What a double-edged sword.

[Renata]

Abortion is by definition birth control. I mean, that's why you have one--to control whether you give birth. It's not like people have them for fun.

[Felicity]

Its profound to me to have an opinion on something that is based on knowledge, my character and my own limited experience, then to read your post on SR, Tertia, and to realize that so many of you have been deeply affected by these issues, and really, my opinion is just that.. one womans opinion, not born of personal experience or real understanding.

We can have all the opinions we want until we are put in a situation where we have to make a choice, then opinions dont matter.. what matters is the need to do the right thing as best as you can.

I, too, cried when I read your post. What a horrible decision you had to make.

Thank you for sharing your bravery and pain, I cant even begin to imagine how an experience like that would affect you.

[Kay]

I voted in the poll, but my real option wasn't there. There is no mention of the health of the child(ren). I believe that your SR experience would fall into that category. I lean to the side of pro-life, but I would not judge the women who protect their own health or make a choice to end the suffering of their unborn baby.

I'm "done" with my family building in about 4 1/2 weeks (God willing) and I'm lucky in that I'll never face that choice. My heart goes out to those that do.

I admire you.

[Suzie-Q.]

T.,
I never knew. {{{{{HUGS}}}}}} to you and to Marko too. What a difficult experience. I would have done the exact same thing in your shoes.
Believe it or not, I have actually had some people suggest I should have done SR with the twins b/c i am single and what was i thinking keeping both in my situation?????
Now... with trips or quads i could understand that line of thinking and would have done it, but, with twins?????? And the risk involved??? And no possibility of ever becoming PG again?????
ARE THEY ALL SMOKING CRACK?????

My father still occasionally says to me, "Well, you CHOSE to have two..."

We can never win.

[Diatryma]

Would it be all right if I used your selective reduction post and some others from this site as part of a bioethics portfolio? I've included my email above, other than the false bit, if you'd like to discuss it with me. Thank you for writing this-- it's easy to forget that actual people go through this sort of thing and speak of generalities alone.

[jax]

T - Thank you so much for sharing this painful experience (I have just read about your SR and had no idea) I think yours and others' experiences demonstrate the 100% need to hold onto the right and medical support to make informed decisions based an personal situations. Diatryma is right, there is a need to stop speaking in generalisations.
I also really don't believe that anybody goes through with an termination without a heavy heart regarless of their personal reasons ... it is a tough tough call to make and I could never ever ever judge anyone for having gone through it.

[Scout]

I think life begins at conception, but as far as abortion is concerned, I am wishy-washy. I guess I am best described as pro-choice, but that doesn't mean that I necessarily agree with the choices that women make all the time. I find it a tricky, troubling subject.

[katie]

The bottom line to me is this: abortion should not be a political issue. It shouldn't even be up for debate.

My personal views on abortion are just that, personal. Every person will have to answer to God for what they did in this life. They need to work these issues out with Him, not me or any other person here on earth. And if you've had an abortion and you're feeling immense guilt, go to Him and talk it out. He loves you. He doesn't want you to live your life in regret and sorrow.

[Andrea]

It's funny how changing times with technology have made such a simple question so hard to answer. I didn't get to give my two cents on your previous post, so I'll do it now.

Life is growth; if something is not alive, they do not grow. Even as a group of cells, the baby-to-be is growing, changing every minute, and thus is life. Both scientifically, physically and yes, emotionally. The most pro-life of people cannot deny that there is a point to reach before babies are able to survive outside of the womb; the most pro-choice of people cannot deny that abortion is ceasing to let a life exist. With that said, I believe the question is more so not "when does life begin" but "when is the life good enough to save".

Is life good enough immediately after the egg and sperm connect? Is life good enough at implanation? Is life good enough at the heart beat, meaning the morning after pill is acceptable as it is taken very early on? Is life good enough at 12 weeks, making abortions before then acceptable? Is life only good enough at birth, making even partial birth abortions of babies in their last trimester of development okay?

While I believe it is time that pro-life supporters do realize that there is a viablility point to reach, I also firmly believe that pro-choice supporters need to realize that abortion is not simply suctioning out a glob of tissue from a pregnant woman's womb. That is a baby in there. Tiny, yes. Not completely formed, yes. But still a baby.

In this world, we have to acknowledge the full extent of what we support before we decide to support it. Abortion kills something. It terminates something. That is not just a definition; it is a truth. Conception is the beginning of life, not because of a purely religious outlook, but because something is growing, forming, beginning its journey into the world. If a body chooses to get rid of the life on its own accord, it's still the end of the life: a miscarriage, a body's personal abortion.

I guess I just have a problem seeing abortion as a woman's everyday right to pay a man a few hundred dollars to pull her baby out of the safe haven inside her body, piece by piece. Furthermore, I am sure this will upset many, but I also disagree with men having no say in their own child's life. Now, before people get angry, let me just say I am NOT telling people that women's bodies need to be controlled by a man. I am noting that it's amazing that we'll tell men they can't make you have or not have the baby, but by God you'll be paying child support if we do choose to keep the child.

So, what made the deal for me? What made me draw my conclusions on abortion? Part of it came from the photos; I have seen thousands of dead babies - in varying stages of development. In the ones at 12 weeks or before, I have typically seen a tiny, skinny human being with blood all over them. If they had been born at that moment, they obviously wouldn't have survived. Then again, they weren't asking to be born. From then on, the outlook is pretty gruesome: arms, legs and heads separated from bodies, many times burned from the acidic poison, often leaving faces that have mouths wide open, as if crying.

Those are not things I could just observe in my classes without beginning to look at it as more than just a woman's right. But, even they were not my complete deciding factor nor was my observance that life grows thus making conception and beyond life.

It was seeing an abortion.

The baby was under 20 weeks; I can't remember quite where. As I sat there, watching the ultrasound while the doctor explained what was going on, I saw the baby quite literally try to "run" from the utensils that were there to end her life. Even the doctor noted that she was trying to hide from him. He grabbed onto her left leg and pulled it from her body, bringing it into the world. We watched her curl up in a corner, and start frantically swimming around when the doctor returned. He removed her other leg, and her movement suddenly halted. There was only slight jerking when her arms were removed, and then...nothing...when he pulled her head from her, bringing her face out into the open. The torso was then removed and that was it.

I've been scarred from that moment.

Even so, it made me come to one of the most important conclusions of my life: while to some, it is seen as a mere decision, a right, of a woman to determine she doesn't want to keep "hosting" this life, it is a moment of despair for the other party. Despair in the pain that many will feel, despair in knowing that the safe haven is aborting them, despair in a life quickly ending. Unborn children may not have great intellectual reasoning, but if we are able to record brain waves, then it is ridiculous to think they can't tell they are in danger. I especially realize that after watching that little girl.

So, for me, all life is worth it. Life is worth it when they are just little groups of cells, waiting to change. Life is worth it when they are itty bitty little humans, still far from being able to survive on their own. And life is certainly worth it when they are becoming chunky little babies inside of their mother, at a point when parents are sifting through name books and buying a crib.

If it is worth it to save a 70 year old woman dying of a heart attack, even though she has lived a full life, then it is worth it to save a pre-born child whose life on the threshold, waiting for its grand entrance.

[Janis]

When does life begin?

When your kids are grown and out of the house!

How's that for a non-controversial answer?

HAHAHAAAA

*to be serious, for me it begins at conception. I am pro-choice.

[Lisa]

I am wholeheartedly pro-choice but I feel like I can't answer your poll. I just don't know. Abortion is one of those things that makes me uncomfortable- I hope I don't ever have to have one but since I feel very ambivalent about it, I can't tell anyone else not to have one, you know?

[BeckaJo]

I have never faced this situation. I have watched far too many of my friends and sisters face it. Frankly, I believe that it is no one's busness but the mother's - she is the one who is in contact with her baby, she knows her circumstances, she will know what is best for herself and for the child. Period. No religion, no law has the right to come between her and that decision.

[L.]

Andrea, your comment literally moved me to tears. I wonder, do you recall the circumstances under which the woman was having the abortion? (I think one reason it upset me is that I imagined myself in that situation, in drastic circmstances that would lead me to choose a later-term abortion -- I`ve fortunately never been in such a situation). Describing the death of the baby is half the abortion story -- describing the reason the woman decided to end her pregnancy is the other part.
My pro-life friends often ask me, "How can you fully realize how horrible aborton can be, and yet still remain pro-choice?" For me, it is not that easy. I am not a doctor or nurse, so I could never imagine doing an abortion -- but I can definitely imagine drastic circmstances in which I might choose to have one.

[Hazel]

Tertia,
I remember reading your SR post ages ago and being devastated. I would always have defined myself as pro choice for the rest of the worls but anti abortion for myself, I don’t think I have the right to decide what anybody else does. When I was 18 weeks pregnant with our son an ultrasound showed a cord anomaly that is usually associated with some devastating birth defects. We did the research and realized we could be facing a situation where our baby had problems that wouldn’t allow him to live outside the womb. As usual, this happened on a Thursday evening and we couldn’t see a neonathologist until the following Tuesday. Those few days were agonizing and until you are put in the situation it is very difficult to know how you will react. Our son’s cord anomaly was an isolated incident as they say. We were very lucky. My heart truly goes out to anybody that has to make a decision like yours or the one we had to think about. That said, I have a very hard time accepting how anybody could justify a late term partial birth abortion. I found myself listening to a report on partial birth abortions on NPR recently where they detailed the procedure and I was really shocked. I had no idea, I was really stunned. I think they are barbaric.

For me I think life begins at implantation.

[projgen]

I think perhaps for the sake of those readers who might have *had* an abortion, for whatever reason, we might want to leave the graphic descriptions behind. Intellectually, most women know exactly what happens during an abortion. Emotionally, nobody needs to read in graphic black and white what happened. Especially not those women who likely agonized over their decision, and then did what was best and right for their circumstances.

No need to throw it in their faces.

[Kinneret]

Tertia- I'm sorry you had to go through such a difficult choice.

I am fervently pro-choice for many reasons but I believe that when it comes to my body - I make decisions. No one else. I choose whether or not to have a baby (hahaha, right. I'm an infertile), whether or not it's a life at conception, whether or not it's the "right thing" to do. It's my morals - no one elses.

If at the end of this long day, I stand before a god (if there is one) and am judged for the abortion I had when I was 16 and some god decides that I was malevolently evil in my decision and that I should burn in hell for it - so be it.

But the god I think may exist, would understand. All I am saying - it's no one else's business what I do. Your morals are not superior to mine, even if you happen to think they are.
It's between me and whatever supreme being is in business when my time comes.

[Andrea]

L., to be honest, I didn't know much about the woman. To me, it was strange in itself that she was allowing a classroom to observe her abortion; kind of heartless in itself. You know, she may have actually been married...but she definitely wasn't just some teenager who couldn't be a mom. She just didn't want to be one.

And anyhow, a person's circumstances don't make their unborn child less of a child. I guess that just bothers me, because people use their obstacles in life as a way to justify an abortion, and yet with any other case, they would see their obstacles as something to overcome in order to make their lives better.

One of my biggest problems with abortion is the political avenue: why should my tax dollars, if I am so fervently against abortion, be funding places like Planned Parenthood? If people truly want abortion kept out of politics, they should also realize places like Planned Parenthood shouldn't be receiving funding. It should be all or nothing; if they don't want the laws restricting it, they shouldn't be receiving money from the lawmakers, either.

When my mom was 19, she had to have a number of surgeries on her ovaries, because gigantic cysts were surrounding them. In the midst of it, I came along and instead of aborting me to ensure her health, she chose to keep me. And I thank God for that everyday.

[Rachel]

Andrea,
Thank you for your courage! I find it so interesting that if we miscarry a baby at 12 weeks, we mourn. But if we end the life, we end up justifying it. I don't get it. Tertia, thank you for bringing this up. I know you and I probably have opposite views, and I am sorry for all you have been through. I heard a quote once...can't remember from who..."Human reproduction is a messy business." THAT IT IS!
Rachel

[rosemary grace]

I think it's a little strange that being pro choice is frequently interpreted as being actively pro abortion. As in "yay, abortions ROCK, everybody should have one!". I think very very few women would ever intend to have one, and when their path brings them to the decision it will not be taken lightly. http://bitchphd.blogspot.com/ is a very good feminist blog with some excellent debate and information sharing on the whole topic of abortion. Some listed in her favourite posts list, and there was a post this morning about this very issue.

My only personal experience of this isuuse is on the medical end. Something I do not share with everyone I meet: I work with fetal tissue in a research lab, and did so in my previous job in a different research lab too.

Now, here's the part people might find more strange, I also used to work with mice, breeding them, maintaining a colony of transgenics, and sacrificing select animals to remove tissue for experiments. I will not work with animals again, I will not handle them in a lab situation, or "sac" them, but I will work with human fetal tissue, because the tissue source is consensual. Mice don't give us permission to steal their brains and pancrei.

I'm sure many would argue that the fetus doesn't give it's consent, but a fetus CAN'T give consent! Whether or not you think of a pre-viability fetus as a seperate being, the possibility of attaining consent from them is impossible. For the first several years of life children are not expected to make their own life and medical decisions. Their parents do it for them, up to and including withdrawal of life support, should that horrible situation ever arise. So if the fetus is a being with rights, then the decisions regarding those rights fall upon the woman carrying the fetus.

In many cases I equate abortions with Tertia's heart-rending decision with her baby Ben. Life support was withdrawn so that he could die peacefully in her arms, not strapped to dozens of medical machines. Women who know their child will be exposed to abusive relationships or don't feel that they can provide the caring supportive environment needed...they terminate their pregnancies because they care too much about their child to subject it to a life of misery. Abortion is not a selfish act, women who don't care about the fate of babies go ahead and have the kid, then leave it locked in a cupboard while they go party.

I'm not "pro abortion". Abortion is not a happy thing to be celebrated. I seriously doubt that anyone walks out of an abortion and goes to have a party to mark the occasion. I think that it's essential that women have access to proper birth control so that they don't have to make those kinds of decisions. But even birth control is only 99% effective if you're lucky, and the option, the choice, has to be there to end accidental and unwanted pregnancies WITHOUT GUILT OR RECRIMINATIONS.

If excellent organizations like Planned Parenthood are shut down there will be more abortions, and they will be less carefully carried out. More women will die. Planned Parenthood's main function is providing contraception and general health information, they help keep women from needing abortions.

[L.]

Andrea, the tax question is a tough one. I do not support many policies of my government, and yet my tax dollars are being used to fund them. It would be really great if we could pick and choose exactly where our taxes go -- but for now, we can only work to elect the politicians who make the decisions.

And not every miscarriage is mourned -- the pregnancy I lost was very unwanted, and I celebrated with a bottle of champagne when it ended. I realize my experience and feelings were completely different from that of the majority of women who miscarry, but every situation is different. I had always wondered how some women could have abortions and not feel sad, and I think I came closer to understanding.

[21stCenturyMom]

Andrea - I think you must have been watching a witch doctor. Medical doctors do not rip babies from the womb limb by limb. I know women who have had late term abortions for medical reasons and they are simply induced into labor and then they deliver a non-viable child. No legs are ripped off. And oh, by the way, That woman must have the biggest cooch in the world to accommodate an ultrasound wand, and a bunch of instruments.

I think you must have been dreaming or watching a movie. You were most certainly not sitting in a classroom in the United States watching a licensed medical practitioner perform an abortion.

[L.]

Actually, 21stCenturyMom, there are all sorts of methods for performing late-term abortions, and Andrea did indeed describe the dilation and extraction method. The ultrasound wand goes on the mother`s tummy. There are some women to whom induced labor presents medical risks, and for these women it is safer to remove their babies in pieces.

[Andrea]

21stCenturyMom - glad you reminded me I never obtained degrees in psychology. I guess all of my years of schooling were just a big dream, along with the money, the plaques on my wall and the people I counsel. Oops. And, by the way, your attitude of "abortion makes babies disappear!" is exactly why 93% of women will regret their abortion within seven years of having it - they weren't well informed of its practices. There are literally a dozen or more ways to perform an abortion; search for "Sharp Curettage", "Suction Aspiration", "Dilation and Extraction", etc. etc...all these methods involve either "ripping them limb by limb" or some form of removal/suction of the body.

There is no magic powder that makes the baby fall asleep and go to baby heaven, while the baby's body (excuse me, glob of tissues) is quietly removed by the doctor who is paid up to $1,500 to perform the abortion on the all-too-often emotionally unprepared woman.

I am NOT here to argue, and certainly not on Tertia's blog, but if you are going to challenge my education, my career and my personal experiences, I suggest you read up on the topic before jumping to conclusions. I am done with this discussion; I don't feel it's necessary to continue arguing; I know what I learned, and I know what I saw.

...L.: I do understand the tax situation. We (obviously) cannot designate where our tax dollars go, though that might be rather nice. My point is not that we should have that ability, but that if the Pro-Choice community is so adamant that the government, lawmakers, and well, citizens stay out of the abortion business and its practices, then they should not be receiving federal funding.

I really believe that, in America, Roe v. Wade was not horrendous just because it made abortion legal. It was horrendous because it made it legal without any restrictions, and now judges are too afraid to rule on any restrictions because of the chastising that comes from the pro-choice community. I don't care what anyone thinks about choice; 12 year olds should not be allowed to have an abortion without their parents ever knowing they were sexually active. There is something wrong with that picture.

[21stCenturyMom]

Point of clarification - the method of abortion Andrea describes is rare, rare, rare. I am sick to death of the campaigns to make it sound like women just blithely choose that method to 'make their babies disappear' and that doctors just shrug their shoulders and perform the act. To quote Andrea "to be honest, I didn't know much about the woman. To me, it was strange in itself that she was allowing a classroom to observe her abortion; kind of heartless in itself. You know, she may have actually been married...but she definitely wasn't just some teenager who couldn't be a mom. She just didn't want to be one."

How cruel of you, Andrea to make that assumption. Either you know why she was there or you do not - you don't get to pick her motivation out of your head.

These methods are used ONLY when any other method poses a threat to the mother's life.

Let's please give that poor mother some credit and not pillage her own humanity when we have no idea why she did what she did.

[L.]

Andrea, I don`t know if I can believe that 93% of women who have had abortions regret them. I`ve never seen any objective statistics (that is, not sponsored by a pro-life group) that found anywhere near such a high number. For some, abortion is indeed a tragically wrong decision, but for others it is clearly not.

I believe abortion kills human life, and yet I still discussed the subject of late-term abortion with my doctors when I had prenatal testing in all of my pregnancies, and I planned to have one under certain circumstances. I am not a health professional, and yet I have held a 7-week old embryo (my own) and I know that I was holding a very small human being. I will agree you with 100% that abortion is sad, that there are many too many abortions, that society fails some of the women who have them because they feel as if they have no choice. I realize this, and yet -- I still do not want to see the procedure criminalized. I am still pro-choice.

And I think you are wrong about the pro-choice community --most pro-choice people I know support parental consent laws, or they wouldn`t be getting passed in so many states.

[EJ]

I applaud you, Andrea, not just for saying what needs to be said but saying it unapologetically.

Abortion has become such an abstract topic now. We can talk about it and skirt cleanly around what IT is. It is a procedure of tremendous brutality. It is a termination of life, period. Legalization of abortion may not advocate abortion, but it sure as hell condones it. The pro-choice stance, however heartfelt and sincere toward women in distress, may not advocate abortion, but it also condones it.

It's discouraging that we're still debating the point at which life begins. A clump of cells may not be cute or resemble a person, but those cells are alive. I could far more seriously take a person telling me that they recognize this important fact and then state reasons as to why abortion is necessary anyway than this widespread passive belief that life begins only when you can see it, or when it's viable, or when it's convenient to recognize it.

[L.]

EJ, you are right. Abortion is tremendously butal, it is a termination of life, period, and still, I think it should be legal, so therefore yes, I condone it, and I say so unapologetically. I respect your opinion, and Andrea`s, and all the other pro-life women who commented on Tertia`s blog. But I do not want to see the procedure criminalized. Doing so would make as much sense as making laws against war.

[juliette]

Dear Tertia I am so sorry I had not idea you had done SR. I can't believe the shit you have had to deal with. Thank God you know have K and A; you deserve them so much. You are fab!! xxxx