Sleep consultants: You!

You are all now my sleep consultants.  So dear sleep consultants, here are the facts:

1.    Our night time routine is as follows:

·    5pm – get home, play a little
·    5:30 – veggies (which he now refuses to eat)
·    6 – bath
·    6:15 – massage
·    6:30 – get him dressed, he cries hysterically, only calming down when he has his bottle
·    6:35 - bottle

The problem is, he falls asleep while drinking his bottle, always.  Which means he is not getting in enough milk for the night.  Last night I tried to force him to wake up and drink more and projectile puked everywhere.  So that doesn’t work. 

He then wakes up about 9/10/11 and from what I can see, doesn’t know how to put himself back to sleep.  I usually run in and rock him back to sleep.  That takes 2 minutes. Yes, I know this is bad, but I don’t want him to wake Kate or get himself so worked up that it takes me an hour to get him back to sleep. Sometimes he wakes at 12:30 again, this time I get into the spare bed with him, sometimes he goes back to sleep, sometimes he wants to play.

Then he wakes up about an hour later, and starts playing, squealing etc.  I leave him, hoping like hell he will go back to sleep.  After about 15 mins he starts yelling.  I either rock him to try and get him back to sleep (this can take up to two hours) or I give in and give him a bottle.  This morning I gave him a bottle and the awake time was only 45 mins.

2.    When Adam wakes in the night, he is not upset etc, he wants to play.  How do I know this? Cos he is in a terrific mood and gurgles and squeals for a while.  He then gets bored and starts yelling, in an angry way.

3.    I am trying to wean him off a nighttime bottle, because I can see he is not hungry, but it is the only way I can get him back to sleep.  I know this is wrong, but if I don’t give him a bottle he refuses to sleep.

4.    Should I put toys in his cot? (BTW, I don’t think his waking up to play in the middle of the night is him wanting to play with ME cos I am working.  He would play with whoever was there)

So here are my thoughts:

I want him to sleep, I want him to be able to put himself to sleep when he wakes up.  I can see how a skill like that helps, Kate is a perfect example.  It is not a skill that I have taught her though, it came with the package. 

I want to sleep.  It is important to me that I have some sleep, not because I am selfish, but because my employer is paying me a salary to deliver a certain value to the organization.  For that they pay me a salary, with which I support my family.  If I stayed home it might have been less of an issue, who knows.  Maybe I could have napped during the day or had the occasional vegged out day.  I really can’t do that professionally.  I resent it when people imply that being chronically sleep deprived is part of the deal of being a good mother.  This good mother *has* to work outside of the home.  Sorry if that upsets you.  Live with it.

I do not mind waking up once or even twice a night, I am fully prepared to do that.  However, what I do not want to do is be awake for two hours at a time at night as well as the 1-2 night wakings.  As I have said before, I don’t mind little sleep, I do mind TOO little sleep.  That has all sorts of implications. For both of us.

I need to find a solution that works for all of us.  Adam, me, Marko, Kate, Rose etc.  Oh, on that point – Marko does help me, he helps me with Kate.  He looks after her at night.  Unfortunately Adam is a gigantic PITA and only Rose, myself and my mom can settle him and get him to sleep. 

And another thing – he naps during the day when he wants to.  We don’t have a routine, we do have a rhythm.  He does (mostly) get enough sleep during the day.  We can read his cues pretty well.

I am very torn.  On the one hand there is my absolute reluctance to let him CIO and on the other hand both Adam and I need to sleep.  At the same time I need to get SOME sleep (CIO often means no sleep for the mom in the beginning) and I need to make sure Kate doesn’t get woken up all the time by his yelling.

That child is a strong, wilful child.  He goes completely hysterical when he cries.  I am scared CIO is not going to work.  I will not let him cry until he pukes etc.  I will also not let him cry for longer than 5 minutes without going in his room and letting him know I am there.  Even the thought of FIVE minutes of yelling is enough to make me feel completely anxious.  He is going to go ballistic if/when I try CIO.

Ok, just read Mollie’s comment (and all of your comments) – she told me to grow a backbone.  I love Mollie.  I don’t want I am afraid of, to try CIO I mean.  Hold on, need to think about that….. Why does the thought of having Adam crying make me so anxious?  As I said before, I think I am transferring my issues on to him.  It’s the being scared thing.  But as he gets older, that theory is holding less water.  He is not scared, he is just annoyed that I wont play with him or pick him up.  The little fucker.

You know what, I am secretly hoping he will find his own way of sleeping at night.  In the back of my mind I am hoping that by 10 months or even a year, he will be sleeping through.  I can do this for that long… BUT – what if he doesn’t?  I know it gets harder as they get older to try sleep training.  I feel tremendous pressure to do something NOW.

Ok, so you sleep experts – tell me what to do.  Don’t tell me to read a book, I have read Baby Whisperer, No Cry Sleep Solution, The Contented Little Baby Book, Happiest Baby.  I don’t want to read a book.  I want, I want….Oh, I don’t even know what I want from you.  Inspiration? Encouragement?  Direction? A backbone? Bucket loads of money so that I don’t have to work?  World peace?  Lordy, I don’t even know what I want.

I do need to do something.  I would never ever hurt my child, but the other night, after a few nights of little sleep, after two hours of moaning, up and down, rocking, yelling, playing around and around, I felt such a rush of anger towards him.  I could understand, in that moment, why people DO lash out at their children.  You get desperate.  But then Marko came into the spare room and raised his voice a mere octave and I immediately thought “don’t you DARE raise your voice at my poor innocent little lamb, I will KILL you”. 

Oh, you asked what my mom says – she says I should do CIO, she says he has me wrapped around his finger.  Even Rose said to me this morning “you need to do something Tertia, you need to sleep”.  And she is anti CIO herself!

That child is handful I tell you.  How can such a little person cause SUCH major mayhem and anarchy?  He is little in stature, but let me tell you that little boy is huge in presence.  I love him so much my heart aches, he is such a special boy.

I think I need to try and let him cry.  A bit.  Does a bit even help?  Or is it all or nothing?  Ok, next weekend. I will try to do some CIO next weekend as I am off for a few days then.

Fuck.  I don’t know what to do.

 

**Forgot to add, the babes are already sleeping each in their own room.  However the little shit's yells are so piercing, they reverberate through the whole house.  AND I close both of their bedroom doors and turn down the sound on the video monitor when I am sleeping. I still hear Kate’s grunts and Adam’s yells.

***And another thing - I've just introduced a 'lovey'.  Hopefully that will help.

****One more thing.  Not sure if you are all aware that Julie, is in fact, an asshole.  No relation to Adam though.  Ask her why.  Insensitive cow.

Comments

[verna]

my daughter was the same way. at 9 months i gave in and tried cio.

the first night, we both cried for 4 hours. i would go in every 15 minutes to let her see me, but i refused to touch her. she finally cried herself to sleep. (so did i!)

the next night, it only took 30 minutes. the third night....she cried crocodile tears for 2 minutes, gave a deep, disgusted-sounding sigh, and fell asleep.

she's 8 now - and as normal as an 8 year old gets. *g*

it's hard, but it does work. hang in there - you need your sleep!

[Melissa4444]

I think that the first few nights of CIO are really really hard. More for you than him. So my advice is to start on say, a Friday night. So you have a couple of nights behind you before you have to go back to work.

I would consider a comfort toy, teddy etc. And maybe a musical toy that he can pull on a string or such. We had it with my son,Xander. We had a little musical mobile on the side of the cot and pulled the string everytime he went to bed. I guess that sound became related to bed time. Soon enough, he was doing it himself in the middle of the night.

I believe only a few minutes at a time, particularly at first. Just give it 5. Then go in. Talk to him quietly, and tuck him in, or put the musical toy in, whatever. Then leave again. If you want, stay in the same room as him, though I didn't do that. Another 5 minutes. For the first 2 or 3 nights, I wouldn't go more than 5 minutes at a time.

I also strongly advise you to have someone with you. Maybe get your Mum, a good game of cards or something distracting. I did this with my niece (my sister couldn't do it), and I swear, 3 nights, and we were done. The first 2 were heartbreaking, but it worked.

The bottom line is, you need sleep. There's only so long you can go before you crash. Take a deep breath and go for it. If it doesn't work for you, then ok, maybe try a sleep consultant. But it's really worth a try.

The fact is this is a really divisive topic. Lots of people are really opposed to CIO. Most of them, probably never tried it. I don't know many, who after trying it, are still opposed.

Good Luck. I'll be thinking about you.

[Boulder]

Again for any reader who isn't clear on this - I have NO children. But, I think I see that you need to at least try a different approach. Test the waters a bit more. You've now sat in the room with him & seen he is fine and that he is being a little bugger. All playful. And why not? You've got a terribly smart boy there who fully appreciates the fact that all he needs to do is fuss and you will be 100% there for him, right?

So, with the spare bedroom in mind, can you move one crib for a week, say, and let him fuss, holler, wail a little bit (not advocating anything merciless, only that it might get loud!) and see in gradual increments just how many evenings he does this, and if you can add a moment or two along the way to see if he gets that you are near, but not going to "engage." With Kate in another room, the pressure may be off a tad to worry about his waking her, and you can let the bugger get loud within your eyesight. I think you can do this in a comfortably placed chair where you are in his eyesight, but not looking at him & engaging with him. He may do just as you've said and you may say, ok, this does not work right now. Or, you may find on the first night or so he does get pissed off, but on the third night maybe not so much. Who knows? You haven't had the chance to see yet, right?

I think of it a bit like this - you've trained him on how to alert you that he requests your presence, and now it is time for you to in a gentle fashion re-train him. That you don't race to him at the first request, the first holler or the first pissed off wail. You will go, obviously, when there is a sound that is not him being pissed, but him need his mommy for something other than play or preoccupation.

I think if he's smart enough to have figured how to summon you and how to "find" you in the room, he's smart enough to begin to understand that he can play by himself a little at night, and that he can sooth himself a bit. I think knowing that he can sooth and relax himself is a terrific thing to help teach him.

But that is only my opinion. You do what works for you, that is all that really matters in life, right? We'll be here to hold your hand if you need us to.

xoxo

[Lila]

Don't get to the point where you see CIO as a punishment for him. It is not. It's your emergency measure to preserve the power you need at work, at home, with your family and yourself. Your motivation is positive, not negative.

Did you think about what he eats before he goes to sleep? Maybe milk alone is no longer "filling" enough. Do you add something a bit more substantial? I don't know how you handle it in SA but in Germany we give some sorts of cereals to 6 month old babies'milk in the evenings. On the other hand, sometimes these things make tummy aches so you should maybe ask your doctor whether to change Adams's evening menu.

Another thing is daytime naps. You should check whether his rhythm is disturbed. If he gets enough sleep in the daytime there is no reason why he should sleep at night. You may have to introduce fixed nap times, before and after noon. You should try to find out how many hours of sleep he needs in the course 24 hours, and check how these sleeping times are distributed.

It may be necessary to manipulate the daytime naps, e.g. to wake him up long enough before the evening and let him spend a very active afternoon. It may be necessary to cut down on his morning sleep where he returns to himself the hours he and you missed at night. I'm sure you thought about this yourself.

How does he go to sleep in the daytime? DOes he know then to fall asleep alone? Are there strategies that you might take over to his night time sleep? (Of course you know that it's worthwhile to keep the daytime naps in a bright room so that his biological clock understands that this is NOT night...)

Write down everything you do, and decide after how many nights you call it quits if it doesn't work. Decide beforehand which intervals of returning to him you will keep (every book does it differently). Ususally the intervals are supposed to increase. Decide beforehand how far you might go.

And do CIO in a gentle fashion. Letting him cry for hours alone would be cruelty. But NOT taking out of his cot anymore, and telling him firmly that it's night and you have to sleep, is no cruelty. Get help for the first nights you implement this - your mother or Rose might be able to help. Don't do it alone.

It may help if for these nights you and Adam go to sleep somewhere else, at your parents' place. Your husband gets along fine with Kate, and Adam might understand that in a different place, there are different rules. This is just an idea, I'm sure other mothers will say you have to train him in his regular environment.

And then try. See it as experiment. If it works, great. If not, you will try a different plan.

[kim]

Our chap has a mobile above his bed which he listens to and watches when he is going off to sleep or sees when he wakes up. We went in each time he cried and checked him to see if he was O.k and let him know we are there if he needs us. When we started to retrain him out of bad habits and learn to put himself to sleep it was a bit of a nightmare for a few days because we had to keep going back in again quite frequently (as in hundreds of times but we only went in briefly each time). But after 3 or 4 days he started sleeping longer and then through the night. Maybe every time he cries you could go in check he is O.K, maybe say something to him and then go back out. I used to say something like - Its time for you to have a sleep now chappie but if you need me I will come. Just to reassure him. Thing is it will be difficult to change his pattern and he will cry but that will lessen and that is probably what puts you off. I guess you also have to remember that we don't always get what we want in life and that is a lessen he will have to learn. You don't have to be mean in teaching him it but by going in and letting him have his way all of the time - he will just learn that by kicking up a fuss he gets his own way. Anyway, that is what we did.

[Lioness]

Good to see you so unapologetic!

You are the one who needs to come up w the solution that works for your family - or not, I mean, it's your right to NOT do anything abt it also. But regarding your fear of hurting him, don't you think you ARE a little bit already? His mum is not rested, his dad is not rested, mum and dad are cranky and he, the little dictator, has learnt that he is absolute king and people will show up when he beckons to entertain his little royal ass at all times. He is far too young to have you this well trained, this is the sort of power he doesn't need to learn just yet and he does need to learn that you are the adults and therefore kick ass, not the little 7-month-old wannabe. "NO", as structure, is a very important lesson, one that stays for life. You are laying the foundation for the sort of child and adult you want himt to be, and for the sort of relationship you want him to have w you and others.

You have these categories in your mind and his crying and fussing is a Very Terrible Thing, whereas your all being exhausted is Not So Bad in comparison. That's simply the way it is w you. Now, it's very easy to theorise sitting here in my European livingroom w no baby in sight but you know you are a wimp w very regimented fears. I am not tellying you what to do (would be a bit afraid to in fact), simply that it seems rather obvious that something needs to be done and soon. And we can comment till kingdom come and offer all sorts of advice but it won't make a difference till you decide on something you are comfortably doing. Or decide you never will be able to do somtehing and resign yourself to it, those are all your rights to some extent.

Wimps do have it harder but you are now the wimp with the two very amazing and permanent responsibilities. Sometimes, not doing what is right for the babies bcs it hurts the parents is a different sort of selfish, but selfish all the same. Don't think of how acting in a certain way will impact you, ask yourself what it would do for your child in the medium and long run and whether it would improve his life quality. And should it turn out that it would do good things, whatever "it" and "the things" are, buck up and do it. It's abt them now.

Yes, yes, I'll fawk off already, no worries. Just wanted to kick your ass around a bit bcs my God, woman, I don't know what the solution will turn out to be for you but the problem as it is depriving you of your children, the enjoyment of them, peace of mind, quality of life. Enough, no?

[Beret]

I completely agree that chronic sleep deprivation is should not be something we just accept as mothers. Sure, for the first several months whent the babes are adjusting to life outside the womb, are learning to sleep oustide Mom's body, and need to eat around the clock we can expect to be tired zombies. But 6+ months later your babies need to be able to sleep at night and put themselves back to sleep.

As I said yesterday, I highly recommend a crib toy. We also turn the aquarium on each night when he goes into the crib. I believe he now associates the soothing water sound with sleep.

All Adam needs to learn is that nighttime is not play time. With no one to play with he'll get bored and hopefully his wakings will end. He will cry, he will fuss. His feelings will be hurt that you no longer want to stay up with him at night.

I don't think you can be too worried about him fussing and waking Kate up. Maybe have her stay at your mom's for a couple nights while Adam is learning to stay asleep?

My other suggestion would be to skip the nighttime bath. Maybe do it in the morning or have Rose do it during the day (I realize you probably don't want to miss his bath...but...) Mabye he's tiring himself out so much by crying when you redress him that's why he's falling asleep at the bottle? Just a thought.

I really wish you the best of luck. Both my kids have slept through starting around 4 months. But I really credit the crib toy for that (and my daughter's paci use).

[Mary]

I've never posted before but this time I feel like I can actually contribute to the conversation :) Ben is now 11 months old. Around 7/8 monthsish I started a nightime routine with him. He had dinner around 5, bath time right after, put him in pajamas, he would play, have a bottle. He goes to bed at 9pm. Now, I know this is much later then a lot of other babies BUT, here's why...Ben wakes at 6:30am like clockwork...He's down for a nap from 9am-11am and then again from 3-5pm. He naps at this time everyday. I never thought I would be the mother who stayed home so her kid could nap in his crib BUT I find that when I go out during his naptime he becomes a monster later in the day.

In the beginning he wasnt neccesarily tired at these nap times or at his bedtime. Thats where CIO comes in. Now, I've NEVER read a book on the subject or parenting for that matter. We did a modified (VERY modified) version of CIO. I would read Ben a story in the rocker, put him down with his little blany thing and put on the ocean wonders toy and walk out. He would cry and I would watch the clock and wait for 2 minutes to pass, go in, rub his head, put the ocean toy on again and leave. He'd cry, this time I'd go 4 minutes without going in. You get the idea. Now, at 11 months, I read the story, put him in his crib, put on the toy (that thing is amazing) and walk out. He doesnt fuss, not even a little, plays with his little blanky (rubs it against his skin) and goes to bed.

I think the hardest thing is listening to your baby cry, no matter what a little jerk they're being! You won't know if it works unless you try, BUT, if it really does make you uncomfortable then wait a little longer (if you can). Trying it on the weekend is definitely a good move since you won't have work.

Hugs--it will get better, and you CAN do it. It sucks, but will only suck for a few days :)

[Miranda]

Hi Tertia! A couple of suggestions although they seem to have already been covered.

Does Adam have any toy/mobile/something to keep himself occupied with in his cot so he doesn't get bored without you? This may keep him happy until he tires out. Daytime sleeping can lead to bubs needing less sleep at night. It also happens for me. I go "I'll just have a short nap" wind up sleeping most of the afternoon away and then not sleeping at night. I'm not recommending waking him, but lots of naps during the day could result in less sleep at night when YOU want it. Enough assvice from me for now. Stay gorgeous and divine Tertia.

[Lisa]

Hi there - quite simply (is it ever simple though?) I'd start dragging out his routine a bit so he finishes with his bottle later ... some children just need less sleep, most of mine have been 8-9hr sleepers at night so in bed about 9pm, awake at 6am - and that with a couple of naps during the day is enough. So I'd do the same routine, that obviously spells bedtime and sleeptime - but start a bit later, drag it out a bit, and keep doing that for a few days until he's going to sleep later - hopefully he will be more tired AND even if he wakes the same times, you probably would have had time to get in a few hours solid sleep before he does.

... and something my mother always told me (probably to make me feel better! LOL) - babies who are awake a lot tend to be very intelligent :)

[Meganann]

Well, one thing is sure, CIO or no CIO you have to change some of your behavior. Because same behavior=same results. Adam will need to learn not to be a PITA at night.

If you are afraid to CIO, maybe change his sleep schedule during the day? He'll be a crabby tired baby, but might sleep at night. It sounds like he really enjoys mommy time with his batteries partly charged.

At the same time, he needs/is going to need to have more continous blocks of sleep in order for growth hormone to cycle properly. It pulses from the pituitary gland while they sleep and less sleep=less growth hormone. It may not be an issue in the short term--but if this goes on through the rest of his infancy, he could suffer stunting (theoretically).

You and Rose and Marko will have to help him regulate his sleep, not just so you can get some sleep but for his health and growth. In your case, I don't think the only motivations for helping him learn to self-soothe a bit are selfish. He needs the sleep as much as you do.

That being said: I do not have kids so if this is all a bunch of assvice, please ignore with my apologies.

[Bridget]

Am I missing something - if he's done with his bottle why does he need to eat more? Is it a preemie thing? I might be completely wrong, but I always understood it was a baby's body weight and not their pre-bed meal that allowed them to sleep through the night?

I had to set a limit I could stand on the crying. I think the most I ever waited to go in and check on my daughter was 5 minutes. When one of us went in we didn't stay, we checked, we patted, we left.

It might get noisy - can you move Kate to another room for a bit? Will Marko go in instead of you - my daughter behaved differently when her father went in.

Good luck - most every parent has been where you are. Every baby I know has had to cry a bit - and everyone is fine. You can do this.

[Chris]

Tertia - Do you read Monica's blog (monica.typepad.com)? She recently did a modified CIO with her son and it worked out well. Perhaps her success will be a comfort/inspiration for you.

I recently wrote an article for my local paper on getting babies to sleep and in the course of my research I realized something: Most of the anti-CIO advocates remind us that babies' sleep patterns are neurological and can't be changed - which is true - but that is not the crux of the issue. We aren't trying to change their sleep patterns per se, we are trying to change what happens when they reach the light sleep/wakeful part of the sleep cycle.

So we aren't going to be able to change the fact that they wake briefly every hour and a half or so, but we are able to decide what to offer them when they do. We can either offer them comfort and the opportunity to be 'put back to sleep' or we can offer them the independence to put themselves back to sleep. We need to decide which is most important to us, individually, and what works best in the context of our lives.

Good luck and I hope your solution comes really soon.

[Tony Comstock]

A year and a half before the arrival of our first daughter we got a puppy.

As a part of the puppy's house training, it was slept in a crate (the theory being the dog won't shit or piss where it sleeps). The breeder warned us that the first few nights the puppy would cry pitiously and we should ignore it.

Night One, lights out.

The dog begins howling in the worst possible way. This continues non-stop for *hours*. Finally I decide that no animal could cry that long or that miseralbe without something being wrong. I get up, go to the room where the puppy's crate it, turn on the light, only to see the puppy smiling back at me, tail wagging. I turn out the light and return to bed. The dog howls till morning. Neither me nor my wife has slept a wink.

Night Two, lights out.

Repeat of night one. Dog howls loudly and continuously until morning. Neither of us sleeps a wink. By morning we're beyond punchy, but the puppy is bright-eyed and cheerful. That afternoon I find out the howling is so loud it's keeping our neighbors up to.

Night Three. Lights out.

Oh God will it ever stop. Remembering Odyseus, I stuff wax in my ears. It doesn't work. The dog is louder than the Sirens. My wife and I are sitting in bed, staring at each other, and entire set of Louis Vaton under each eye. The dog howls. From the sound of it, you'd think each of her limbs were being pulled of joint by joint. Morning comes. Three days with no sleep. We are beyond the beyond. The puppy is happy and full of life – tongue and tail wagging.

Night Four, Lights out.

What? Do you hear that? Do you hear that! Crickets and peepers, the air rustling the leaves. The puppy is silent. Is the puppy dead? I don't care. I'm going to sleep. I'm too tired to sleep. I lay there in the dark listening to the sound of the puppy not crying. After some few hours I drift off.

-----

Our daughter was not boysterous, but she feed every two hours, then twice a night, then once a night. At 12 months my wife was still getting up and wandering down the hall to answer her cries with a little boob-snack.

Around this time Mrs.C went away for a long weekend with her girlfriends. Unlike my wife, I'm a heavy sleeper. I don't know if the daughter cried the first night. If she did, I didn't hear it. She may have cried the second or third night to, but I sleep like the dead, so he cries went unanswered.

What I do know is by the time my wife returned, she had given up crying. Mrs. C's first full night of uninterupted sleep was the first night back from her time way. The daughter gave up the boob too. Three days with smelly, hard-sleeping old dad "cured" her. We'd still go out for our morning thing, because I enjoyed it, and I know that my wife sleeps better (even today) when she knows that what ever she hears it can't be the baby.

I have no plans to write a book ("The Three-Day Way to Train Your Kids, Dogs, and Other Dependants!") but I do suspect that some sort of threshhold gets crossed in 72 hours. We've got another coming in a few months, and will probably try the same tactics. I expect they'll fail miserably. Damn these kids, each one has the nerve to be an individual human being.

Good luck, hang tough.

-TC

[blackbird]

...again, not reading previous comments -sorry if I repeat them.
I don't think he is going to learn to put himself to sleep with you offering all sorts of lovely options to him.

It's all or nothing and you must "grow a backbone." He is getting what he wants from you and until you stop completely he it will continue.

I know.
I am a genius.
(okay, maybe not a genius, but I have raised three boys and that's close.)

[Pam]

Tertia-
Have you asked your mom or Rose to do the CIO thing when you aren't there? I think I remember you saying K&A spent one night a week with either Rose or your mom. It's tough to do - we did it with Zach and only had to do it two nights - the first was about 20 minutes of crying, and the second was about 5 minutes.

If he's sleeping well (or a lot?) during the day, maybe he's not quite aware of night vs day? When you go to get him, I wouldn't turn on any lights or anything, and don't talk to him (hard to do, I know)- basically just limit your interaction with him - he wants to interact with you. You can still hold him and make sure he's all right, but limit the enjoyment he's going to get out of it and maybe he'll limit the amount of times he does, 'cause it's not fun for him anymore.

Whatever you decide to do, good luck.

[Jennifer]

Sleep is right up there with water as far as basic needs go for sustaining human life. Do NOT allow yourself to dwell on the thought of Adam crying some in order to establish healthy sleep patterns. You are NOT selfish, you are NOT unrealistic, you are NOT a bad Mommy for NEEDING your basic need for sleep to be met.

Whatever you decide, and ultimately it is up to you and Marko to decide what to do about the situation, make a plan and STICK TO IT. It is incredibly unfair IMO to be wishy-washy when embarking on any kind of sleep training. Not to say that you can't make modifications as you go along, but be conscious of sending Adam mixed signals.

I'd suggest enlisting your mom's help in the matter. It sounds like she is on board as far as something needing to be done. Maybe even Rose could help for a few nights as well. Either separate Adam and Kate for a few nights til the worst is behind you, have your mom take Kate to her house for a few nights, better yet..have your mom take ADAM for a few nights and bring him back when he's putting himself back to sleep in the middle of the night.

Or get Rose to help out for a few nights. Decide how many hours of sleep you simply MUST have to function, put in some ear plugs, and let your mom, Rose, or Marko deal with Adam for that time. There's no reason you have to do this alone.

Also, I would suggest you go into this with a solid 10+ hours of sleep from the night before. Send one munchkin to Rose, one to your mom, have some wine, and get A LOT of sleep. Maybe on a Thursday night? Then go to work on Friday, with Friday and Saturday nights being the first two nights of sleep training. You won't be absolutely exhausted the first night of the ordeal that way. Make sense?

Waiting it out will almost guarantee an even worse time later down the road IME. Sure, if you're able/willing to sustain this level of sleep deprivation for 2-4 YEARS, he might eventually sleep through the night. But from what I've seen, the parents that wait to sleep train either end up with a kid in their bed for 2+ years, with a kid that wakes up repeatedly through the night for 2+ years, or trains them after they are able to pull themselves up or stand up in the crib. THAT, my friend, is a nightmare. You do NOT want to wait til he can stand up to do this. They can pitch a much greater fit for a much longer time at that point.

One more thing to my way too long post....perhaps consider having someone else offer him a bottle during the night. If he is TRULY hungry, I would feed him. Period. And if he IS hungry, he will take that bottle from whomever is offering it to him. I personally wouldn't wait til I'd been up with him for 2 hours to offer a bottle. Give him the bottle, put him back down. The end. Quiet, dark, very little interaction with him. All business. No playing. Intervene only if he is truly distressed, then only long enough to calm him before trying again. That's the part that's easier with help from mom, Rose, and/or Marko.

One of my three woke for a bottle from 7-11 months after sleeping through from 8 weeks on. We'd just moved 5000 miles away though, and our life was chaotic, so I went with it. She'd take the bottle then go right back down, 10 minutes max from start to finish. Then one day she just stopped. I didn't mind 10 minutes in the middle of the night, and she really did seem hungry. But hours? Nope. We'd have done SOMETHING if it had been affecting my ability to be a mom during the day, ya know?

And it sounds like that's the point that YOU are at my friend. You gotta do SOMETHING.

[Lala]

Jackson tortured me by not sleeping through the night until he was four and it was my own darn fault. That being said - It "sounds like" Adam is not getting tired enough to sleep the whole night. Also they might need to be in different rooms so that you don't have to worry about him waking up Kate. Those are the two things that jump out at me, everybody else has great suggestions. Good luck.

[Michele]

Hi Tertia. You say he wakes up & the bottle puts him back to sleep, but he's not really hungry. Have you tried a pacifier? Are son (9 1/2 months) wakes up several times in the middle of the night, roots around for his pacifier, and goes back to sleep. I only know he's awake if I'm still up, otherwise once I go to sleep, I don't wake up until my alarm goes off in the morning. It's worth a shot.

[Leah]

Believe it or not, Adam may need to go to sleep earlier, especially since he is falling asleep during his bottle. We had night waking issues with my daughter, we ended up moving her bedtime earlier until she was going to sleep at 5:30 p.m. I worked at the time, and hardly saw her during the week, but she quit waking up at night.

Also, you might try making sure he gets a longer nap during the day, that might give him the extra rest he needs to make it past his evening bottle, therefore falling asleep a little later.

I used the Ferber method, and his general theory is that sleep begets sleep. If a child is sleeping poorly, they usually need MORE sleep. I kept working in longer naps and earlier bedtimes. My first child was a sleeper, with naps and an early bedtime, she slept about 16-18 hours her day, even as an older infant. I worried about it a lot, but when I asked the doctor she said, "Be thankful."

Good luck, it's no fun. My son woke a lot at night wanting to play and I can't remember what made it stop except time. He was a younger baby when he did it, though.

[VHMPrincess]

daytime naps - our pediatrician told us to help with the night sleeping, from the time he was a newborn - no nap should be more than 1 hour. She told us to wake him and make him fully awake after that 1 hour was up. He only took 2 1-hour naps a day until he was 1. After a little bit, he knew when the hour was up and would just wake up himself. Limiting sleep during the day will help the night sleeping. My son slept thru at 9 weeks old ( from 9:30 until 6:30 , formula fed ). You might try limiting day sleep first.

[elin]

to begin with... love your blog. also, i don;t really know shit, only my experience but here are some thoughts. i have boy/girl twins who are almost 2 1/2. i don't have a huge problem with CIO. i tried at 3 months with my daughter. we tried for several nights and i listened closely to her cries. she wasn't ready. at 6 months i went to a party and at that time she was only getting up once for about 15 minutes. that night she was getting up a lot... clearly checking on us. i let her cry. the next night she cried for about 15 minutes and since she has not ever gotten up at night. she was ready. as adam's mother, you will best understand his cries. my advice is put down the books and trust yourself.

my son was like Kate... always slept. he was doing 11 hours at 2 months. the flip side is that he ate ALL DAY LONG. anyway, at almost nine months we had to do CIO for 2 nights because the bedtime routine changed. because he always just slept he never had to learn to be awake on his own. i don't know if this helps at all but i hope so.

one final thought, my son could sleep through hours of violent screams from his sister. it's amazing to me how much tolerance they have of each other.

good luck.

[Faith]

Tertia-- Change Your Perspective.

Tony!!! I have a book on training dogs-- that includes training children, husbands and associates to do what you want, or at least treat you with respect!!! I have to get you the name of that book, because I think of it's dog training principals often when dealing with my daughter! LOL!

Anyway, Tertia, you will need two things darling: No. 1: You must change your outlook. Sleep deprivation is DANGEROUS for humans, and especially Mommies-- so your getting sleep is for the PROTECTION of Adam and Kate.

I mean, what if you were so sleepy you drove yourself of the side of the road on the way to work, or something? When I told my OB that I couldn't sleep and was on the verge of delerium, he didn't blink a second before prescribing something to get me to sleep-- because he knew I was in a dangerous place. PUT YOUR SLEEP FIRST for the sake of your children, if for no other reason. *Remember, on airplanes they say put the oxygen mask on yourself before assisting those around you.

No. 2- In my personal experience, children have hurt cries, sad cries, hungry cries and angry cries. The I want you to come play with me and you are not starts out as an demanding cry, then turns into an angry cry, then turns into a sad cry, then turns into exhaustion, boredom and......SLEEP!!!!

CIO for three nights, and DON'T interupt the process. If you want to, rock to sleep for the first time you put him to bed...BUT DO NOT ROCK TO SLEEP FOR ANY OTHER WAKINGS UNTIL IT'S DAY LIGHT.

I know some people say go in and re-assure a crying child every 5-15 minutes or so. I'm not in favor of that personally, because I think it REINFORCES the behavior of crying for night time attention. In other words, you will be sending a mixed message to someone who can not communicate with words and does not understand nuances and exceptions to rules. And thus he will learn to cry longer and louder because he knows that Mommy has a time limit on her duration, and she will eventually come and get him out of the crib, or reward him with play time, etc. You really don't want him to learn how to wait you out, do you? As Doctor Phil says, pick your battles carefully. But if you choose a battle with a child, you'd better not lose.

With Dharma, I do a nightly ritual that signals to her that "The Party's Over." I dim the lights. Perhaps I read to her. I put her in her bed and turn on her musical mobile. Then when just before the music stops, I turn out the lights, shut the door, and walk away. She may protest a teeny bit-- but she knows that when it's dark, she will not see me until morning no matter what, so she might as well go to sleep. There are toys in her crib, so when she wakes up in the daylight, she plays with them at first. But at the first sound of her voice, I get up and go to her in the morning and feed her because I know she is hungry. I don't wait for her to cry. I go to her at the first utterance.

Dharma sleeps 9 straight hours at night. I have monitored her during the night, so I know she DOES stir and even wake up from time to time. But considering the darkness, and her routine, she knows no one is coming to get her until there is light in the room again, so she goes right back to sleep.

You can do this Tertia. But you really do have to re-frame your point of view that you are doing this FOR your children's saftey, not because you are weak or a working mother. I'm not a working mother. But getting my sleep is definitly for Dharma's safety. And Dharma's getting sleep is to preserve her health, and mental, emotional and physical developement.

Best Wishes, as Always!!!
We will be behind you no matter what you do, or how long it takes!

Faith

[mollyv]

This is not the MOllie that told you to grow a backbone, but all Molly(ie)s are wonderful people, so I am sure she gave you excellent advice.

I am going to talk completely honestly with you.

You ALL need sleep. Adam is old enough, big enough, and PITA enough to sleep all night, every night on his own.

Step 1 - put the babes in separate rooms. If one is waking the other, you will go stark raving crazy. We separated our twins till they were two. Just put them back together and they are just fine.

Step 2 - do your same little night-time routine that you are doing.

Step 3 - put Adam in bed

Step 4 - drink 3 glasses of wine, not one, not two, three.

Step 5 - shut Adam's door and go take a shower - a long one - shave your legs, wash your hair. Be careful, because you should be a little tipsy at this point.

Step 6 - watch TV

Step 7 - Shag Marko

Step 8 - (If Adam is still crying) - drink another glass of wine

Step 9 - Damn, is he still crying??

Step 10 - write a drunken blog

Step 11 - wait, what's that I hear?? It might be silence. The little crap, I mean, the little darling has fallen asleep???

Step 12 - go pass out in bed and don't get up again. We turn an air purifier on in our room for white noise and so we don't hear every grunt. I don't turn the monitor on. I can hear if they are freaking out.

See, easy 12 step program. Maybe I should be a sleep consultant. I think Adam is working you and pushing your buttons. They can do that at this age. Hold your ground. You can do this.

love you,
Molly V

PS-If he really is still FREAKING out after a little while (and only you can decide how long a little while is) I would go in and check on him. I never let mine freak, cry a little, yes, but not freak. If he is playing, however, I would not even go in the room. Maybe get one of those cool TV monitor things so you can watch him from outside his room??

[alisa]

After 8 months of uninterrupted sleep I finally braved CIO w/my twins. My dd was the better sleeper but still awoke during the night. My ds sounds like Adam. At the first cry I went in to make sure all was ok but would not take baby out of the crib for rocking, bottle etc. Once it was determined that all was well I left the room and let him/them/her cry. I did this routine each time they cried but I did not keep going in during the CIO period.. Just listened carefully on the monitor and paced outside their door. Took about 5 days and they both began sleeping through. Ironically, my ds became the better sleeper and has never needed re-training. My good sleeper dd had been through CIO several times but at 2.3 both are great sleepers who go to bed awake and love their cribs. They climb in happily for naps and bedtime. The older they get the harder CIO becomes because they have more endurance and can yell at you w/real words. As I type this I recall that a few months ago my dd started waking in the night demanding milk. I would go in and tell her milk in the morning and to drink her water (always have a water cup in their crib) she threw the water cup at me but I just put it back in her crib told I love her and to get to sleep. She yelled at me for a few minutes (no crying) and put herself to sleep. Had I given her the milk I would have been back to nightly wakings. CIO is hard and not for everyone but I am a mess on little sleep and I think sleep is v important for kids.

Sorry this got so long.

Good luck.