Spare the rod and spoil the child?

Funny that Mollie should do a post about this, because I wrote one up about four months ago, no, longer.  Way before the babes.  I never got around to posting it then.  Not sure why not? Just ran out of time I think.

What’s even funnier is how my feelings have changed now that the babes are born.  Here is the post with a few changes to reflect current situation.

I realize having this conversation right now might be a bit premature.  I don’t intend spanking my children until they are at least 4, 5 months old.  For now I am just docking their pocket money and sending them to bed without dinner.

What do you do / think about discipline? 

Do you think there is nothing wrong with a (light) smack on the bum?  Or would you consider that child abuse and totally abhorrent?

Does time out work?  Or is even that too extreme for you?

I know our times were different way back then, but today the pendulum seems to have swung to the other extreme where children are basically ‘in charge’ and seem to do exactly what they want to do. 

Growing up we didn’t get lots of hidings, but we got quite a few smacks on the bum (never with any thing else but the hand).  To be honest, I think we damn well deserved them, even though I know it pained my parents greatly to do so.  We also knew exactly where the line was drawn, what our boundaries were.  We were fairly well behaved, balanced children.  And we didn’t turn out too badly?  Well except brother Paul who likes to box.  But we wont mention the war.

Today there appears to be a big swing towards, um, how do I put this, almost a lack of discipline.  Discipline seems to have become Not The Done Thing.  Instead you have to talk about feelings and stuff?

I don’t know.  I don’t believe in beating your child, at all.  I am firmly against any thing that might be construed as child abuse.  But….  (some of) today’s children do seem to lack any form of discipline at all.  In fact some kids seem downright wild.  There has been several times when Marko and I have been out and there has been a child that is being particularly brattish and disrespectful, not just normal naughty, (with the parents either ignoring the child or looking on bemusedly) and we just look at each other and raise our eyebrows.  And my hand itches, I want to take that child firmly by the arm and explain in clipped sentences exactly what is allowed or not.  I know all kids are naughty and test the boundaries occasionally, which is all part of the normal growing up process, but there is a difference between being normal naughty and being a downright brat.  (See, horrible childfree trawlers from That Site, even a “whining infertile breeder” like myself agrees that some children do behave badly. No, wait, I was called “Whiny, infertile South African twit”)

Not sure the approach of “Now Tommy, we don’t hit our little brothers over the head with a lead pipe, bashing open their skulls, that’s not very nice.  How does that make you feel” is working.  I think I would be tempted with a short sharp tap on the bum and getting sent to your room for time out.  Although never in anger, I am totally against parents who scream and shout at their child and hit in anger.  I hate seeing parents scream and shout loudly at their kids in public as well.  They should use my mother’s example of fingers firmly gripping the child’s upper arm (v firmly) with “if you don’t stop that now I am going to give you such a hiding when we get home” said softly through clenched teeth.  We never got the hiding but it was enough to make us stop doing what we were doing. 

I do not want to have ill disciplined, badly behaved brattish child.  However I don’t want a nervous, introverted child.  I just want a confident, well-behaved respectful child.  But I believe the adult is in charge, not the child.  Some of the children today seem to run the show in their families.

Do I think I will spank my child?  I don’t know.  We were given very light spanks as children and we were totally fine with that.  I think we were more upset about having my parents being upset or disappointed in us than getting a hiding.  At this stage I can’t imagine spanking my children, it goes against every protective loving feeling I have, but my sister assures me there will come a time when I will want to give them a firm sharp slap on the bum (and sometimes a firm kick up the ass, oh no, that’s reserved to give to the husband I think).  Will I be a spanker?  Not sure, but I know I am not into this pussy footing around and talking about feelings shit.

BUT…. How should Rose discipline my kids?  I don’t think I want her giving them a smack but she needs to be able to discipline my kids somehow?

What do you think?  Of course you have to do what is right for your own family, I am just interest to know what your thoughts are on the topic of discipline? 

Comments

[Egg Donor]

Tertia - I totally agree with you. I got the arm grabbing when I was a kid, and it was exceptionally effective. We occasionally got more severe beatings ("the belt" we called it), and that just sucked. It made us fearful and not well behaved. However, there were plenty of times we got the light smacking and we deserved it.

I see kids when we go out and I am SHOCKED at what they get away with. Breaking things in stores, screeching in restaurants, throwing food (and not little kids - BIG kids who definitely know better). I never would have been allowed to get away with that as a kid. I think it is exceptionally important that children are disciplined in these situations, and if that requires a firm grasp on the arm or a light smack, I don't see a problem with that. The point isn't to *hurt* the child, but to let them know that they have crossed a well-defined boundary.

Your thoughts seem exactly on the mark for me. You always have struck me as a logical, loving mom, interested in what's best for her kids socially and emotionally. I'm sure you're approach will lead them to healthy, well-adjusted lives. :)

[Kateri]

It's interesting that you post this now, because I'm reading a book called Unconditional Parenting that is basically about how you discipline in a way that's consistent with your values.

I believe what you refer to as "no discipline" is generally called "gentle discipline" by those who practice it. Gentle discipline, when you read about it, sounds great in theory, but in practice I've seen it go toward raising a child without limits at all. Many people seem to get confused when it comes to setting limits while remaining respectful to feelings, ect. I think people also tone down their emotions too much, like that lead pipe exaple of yours above. I try let myself react as naturally as possible without blowing my stack, so my daughter knows the true consequences of her actions. It's a hard balance to strike, but it's a worthy goal, in my opinion. I was routinely spanked, nothing that would be considered abusive. I hope I never spank my kids. I think there are better ways to teach a child how to act toward others.

My girl is never hit or spanked, but she's well behaved anyway (usually :D). She understands that the world has rules and she doesn't have to like them, but she follows them. I'm crossing my fingers that this good result continues ;)

[tess]

the worst is when a kid is being a complete arse and the parent says,
ohhhh, did you do that because mummy said something that made your heart hurt?

GIVE ME A BREAK.

with sebastian we revoke privileges. this is quite effective. if he is being anti-social (ie: hitting) i tell him since he is not being nice to the other kids, i have to take him away from that situation. so, it is a time out or go inside for the afternoon.

or if he is refusing to eat dinner or whatever, then we begin revoking privileges not entirely associated with the event, but bonuses, so to speak. ie: not listening to mummy, not allowed to help daddy wash the car.

this i find quite effective.

i have smacked him on the tushie, and never as a "last resort". usually for something he does that could hurt him, ie: running across a street not holding my hand. i can't think of an exact example right now.

here is a great piece of advice about disciplining and time outs....from my good friend who has twins.

NEVER discipline your child in a way that makes you more upset.

ie: don't give them the ultamatum, IF you do that one more time we are leaving the park, if this is the first sunny day you've had in weeks and are desperate to be at the park. if it took you 45 minutes to pack up and get there. instead, give them a punishment like having to sit in the car for 10 minutes. for them, it is still a punishment. does that make sense?

i went to a parenting seminar and we learned all about letting your child CHOOSE from an early age. if you are interested in that, let me know.xo tess

[MelG-F]

OK, I have spanked my child (almost 3) once. She was in the bathtub, she wouldn't pick up her toys after being asked to do so about 10 times, and I smacked her on the bum. She cried, I cried, it was awful.

Last night, she was being a bit bratty -- playing keep away with my water bottle. I grabbed her arm and went into Bitch Voice 'GIVE ME THAT BOTTLE NOW!" Again, she cried, I cried, it was awful.

I've decided I don't believe in spanking or grabbing. In my personal experience, I have only resorted to this when I'm at my wit's end and angry. It's always been about MY anger, not my daughter's action. Also, I would not have done these things to a stranger, to my husband or to my dog. How can I justify doing them to the most vulnerable person around me?

We use time-outs with fairly good results -- I see a lot of the way we discipline Emma in "Supernanny." Growing up, I don't remember getting spanked, but i remember the threat of the "belt" or a spanking. That's just not an atmosphere I want to raise my daughter in.

[Nicole]

Funny you should post this today. I was just discussing this topic with a friend of mine in the context of the book 'Five Love Languages'. The premise of the book is that most everyone has a primary Love Language (Acts of Service, Words of Affirmation, Quality Time, Gifts, and Physical Touch) that we use to express our love and that we understand when someone expresses their love to us. You run into problems when we try to communicate love (to a partner, friend, child) in a language that they don't speak, e.g. a hubby might tell his wife she's beautiful, wonderful, g&d until the cows come home, but if words of affirmation aren't her love language, she might not feel loved. Where this comes into play with discipline is that when you discipline you don't want your child to get the message that you no longer love him/her b/c of what they've done wrong. So I think we have to be careful when choosing how to discipline and realize that all forms of discipline don't work well on every child. For example, sending a child who's primary love language is quality time into a time-out alone could get internalized as "I've been so bad I no longer deserve to be loved." Not to say that this is how it always works, or that you can tell a child's love language at an early age, but I do have one child who I have to reserve time-outs as the most severe form of punishment available.

That said, I strongly feel that limits are absolutely necessary for children and I think one of the greatest mistakes I make as a parent is not physically stepping in often enough. It is kind of lazy parenting. You know, you can tell a child to stop doing something a zillion times, but there comes a point where you actually have to physically stop them and may need to remove them from the situation entirely. And as for corrective action, I am in no way opposed to the occassional spank on the rear or sending someone to their room. If the incidence involves a toy, I frequently will put the toy in a time-out. But I think that ideally all discipline needs to be done without anger and in love - that children need to know "I love you, but this behavior is unacceptable." Furthermore, when they're old enough, I think they need to know the *why* the behavior is unacceptable so that they can correct future behavior flare ups.

That might all sound a little too touchy feely, but so far it's been working for us.

[wessel]

Couldn't agree with you more, Tertia. Permissive parenting is "in," and people who are actually firm with their children and require obedience are viewed as archaic at best and ignorant trash at worst. But no matter--I'm not running a popularity contest, I just want to do the right thing by my child. That means that I am in charge, and the child is not running the show and exhibiting to the world the worst that natural human behavior has to offer.

I have no qualms about spanking a child. Much too much has been made of it. If the anti-spankers were raising good, respectful children, maybe I'd become a convert. But NONE of my friends who have liberal parenting views have kids that I want to be around. As they say, you can judge the tree by its fruit, and in this case, you can judge the parenting theories by the children they produce.

I know what you mean about parents looking on "bemused" when their child is being horrid. My personal favorite is "Please stop . ." (whatever the horrid behavior is, for example, throwing water on the guests or kicking the passenger in front of you on the airplane. Excuse the hell out of me, but don't say "please" when you are uttering a command!!!! "Please bring mommie a napkin" is appropriate, but if the child is setting the house on fire, something a little more urgent and firm seems to be required, don't you think?

I was once reading Penelope Leach, because she came highly recommended (blech, blech) and she actually gave an example of a child trying to do something positively awful AND dangerous, and her recommendation? Ignore him. Yeah, right. That is SUCH a misnomer, that ignoring bad behavior will make it go away. NOT. It often escalates the bad behavior as the child is desperately trying to get you to set some limits. But this is what the "experts" are recommending and it is so irresponsible.

One child rearing expert I read that I really respected was Fitzhugh Dodson (can't remember the title of his book). Also liked Dr. James Dobson's books Hide and Seek and Dare to Discipline. (He is Christian though, so that will bother some people. I just overlooked it since it was a non issue for me).

Anyway Tertia, good for you for thinking of how to be a GOOD parent. Love is not just cuddles and sweetness--love is giving your child what they need to survive in the world and be happy and productive. If you create little selfish, obnoxious narcissists that everyone hates, how can you say you have fulfilled your obligation to love your child?

[dawna]

I have a bit of trouble with this one. I feel that an occasional spanking is necessary. I also believe that if you have your limits set in place way before they even begin testing them, then you have a better shot at training them properly without having to spank them very often at all. The most fun is finding what works best per child. Some kids only understand when they push you to a spanking(those hard headed determined ones) others you only have to raise your voice a bit and they collapse in tears. Before every spanking I ever recieved, dad said "this hurts me more than it hurts you" I never got it. I do now. You do feel bad about it, but they really do get over it within minutes, and forgive you completely, and remember the lesson intended. That's what's really important, the learning. If spanking them results in nothing, then there isn't a point in doing so and it's time to find a different punishment. So really, I don't agree or disagree with spanking, it really all boils down to the specific child. But I promise, there will come a day that you really really just wanna beat that kid..
I think I more often go with a hand smack or a tap on the mouth. Gotta teach them to not argue and watch their mouths and respect adults. Reminding a two year old with words can be absolutely useless sometimes, and you have to use a teeeny bit of pain to make your point(the oven is hot, it will hurt you- that doesn't work, associate the sting of a handsmack with the heat of the oven, they won't wanna touch something that causes them pain) you will find your way, just don't let them take over the household and become the boss. If you start early(very early, like a year) with teaching them right from wrong and how to behave, you won't have near the problems. A lot of people go with the "aww isn't he cute when he says asshole!" and in the end teaches them that you think their wrongdoings are cute. That's really where it all begins. So think about that instead of "will i spank them when they are 5??" Sorry for all the rambling and assvice.

[Jody]

Tertia, I don't think the opposite of spanking is no discipline. I wouldn't lump all the spankers with the abusers (and I've seen plenty--my parents' long-ago best friends KICKED their nine-year old son for talking back to his dad as the child lay in the dirt of a parking lot the summer that I was eight), and I wouldn't lump the gentle discipliners with the no-discipliners, either. Of course, I'm a huge advocate of gentle discipline, or at least respectful discipline (I'm not especially gentle when I'm separating my hellcats these days), so I might be suspect.

Oh, by the way, hellcat seems to be typical of many four-year olds, regardless of disciplinary technique. One advantage to being active on the Triplet Connection is that the place is alive with strict disciplinarians and believers-in-spankings, and they're trying to teach the same lessons I am. Our tactics differ, but our lack of headway remains the same.

You might have already guessed this about me, but I don't think discipline involves a lot of hashing over feelings, either. You set rules, you enforce the rules with a minimum of fuss, and you get on with your day. So, for example, if you're at the park with your 2-year olds, you don't crouch in the sand pleading with them to walk with you back to the car because Gramma really, really has to use the bathroom. (I actually witnessed this fiasco once.) You tell your kids you've they've got 5 more minutes, then 1 more minute, say goodbye to the swings and the slide, and now we get in the wagon. Then you lift any stragglers into the wagon and off you go. Fussing? Perfectly acceptable to say in an even-keeled tone, after everyone's in the wagon and you're moving, "it's hard to leave when you're having a good time." Not so smart to start in with the elaborate sympathy. Certainly not smart at all to pretend that the child has a vote on the departure time. You're the mom, you're in charge.

I don't have time to talk about rationales or feelings when I'm enforcing rules. "We don't do that" is perfectly acceptable when you're stopping one child from pinching the other. "This toy needs a timeout" works better than "this child needs a timeout" when your kids are anything less than three years old, in my limited experience. Teaching respect, cooperation, taking turns, and sharing all require infinite patience, and don't seem to be helped at all by spanking. At least, not for us.

I was scared witless of my mother's wrath. I sure as hell obeyed her, but it wasn't because of anything other than pervasive fear. I didn't endure so much on the IF journey just to end up living with kids who fear me. I just cannot parent the way my mom did.

Perhaps because of my childhood, I have rage issues. Serious, serious problems with anger. So hitting is absolutely NOT something I can allow to become part of my parenting toolbox. I have smacked bottoms a few times, and it has (a) never done the teaching I needed to do; and (b) never felt like anything but total shit. I've only smacked a bottom (or grabbed an arm very hard and hissed, by the way--something I've done more than spanking) when I'm so beside myself with anger that no better alternative for handling my child came to mind. I can't imagine hitting or grabbing when I'm not angry, because when I'm not angry, I'm thinking coherently and a better approach always suggests itself. And don't the spanking advocates say never to spank unless calm?

I'm totally mystified as to how that would work for me. "Now I'm calm, I'm remembering the three different approaches I've read about in books or learned from friends to deal with this, and hmmm, I think I'll chose the spanking." It just doesn't make sense to me. In my context. With my kids.

I've confessed my addiction to books, so I'll just throw out two, by the same authors, that are a teeny-tiny bit utopian in their attitudes but still amazing: "How to Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen so Kids Will Talk" and "Siblings Without Rivalry." I started with "Siblings" and only read "How to Talk" because it was available on the LLL borrowing table.

I also love "Raising Your Spirited Child," "I Love You Rituals," and "Playful Parenting," because they're all good reminders to me that many discipline problems arise from basic-care issues (kids trying desparately to get attention, being bored, being overtired, being hungry) and are, therefore, preventable. In fact, I'm typically the most consumed with rage when I know in my heart that the meltdowns and the defiance and the bickering could have been prevented by better self-discipline on my part.

There's also the growing realization that older-kid misbehavior just naturally arises as kids grow, test boundaries, and explore their own power. And it's frustrating as hell, but nothing seems capable of deterring them from that. It's like a deep-seated need, an inevitable part of growing up, to test boundaries, and all you can do as a parent is manage it, not prevent it. It's bloody exhausting to count three for the three hundredth time in a day, or remind people to talk quietly twenty-five times in 15 minutes at the dinner table. I'm secretly tempted just to throw principle to the wind and start to instill a little fear of God and Mommy at that point. Stop yelling or I'll smack you right here!

But I think the kids would still go right on testing their limits. Only now they would be testing limits and also living with a certain amount of fear of me. So what would I have accomplished?

Calder has never once spanked anyone but his angry voice scares the shit out of the kids. He gets mean and contemptous, and the last time anyone checked, neither of those things were good either, discipline-wise. There are a lot of ways to leave yourself room for improvement, I guess.

In the end, I think it all comes down to what works. Spanking has never worked at ALL in our family, for me especially but also for the kids (they smack each other more after an episode of mommy butt-smacking has occurred) and other forms of discipline have mostly worked quite well. In that irritating way that kids have, I hear from teachers and babysitters and grandparents that our kids are perfect angels of decorum and good behavior whenever Calder and I aren't around. I'm not embarrassing myself with the faux-sympathy or the endless pleading, either. So I'm content with my choices. I'm sure you will be too, whatever works out best for you and Marko Kate and Adam.

[cc]

scene: christmas mass at a small coastal town in australia at about 8pm on christmas eve

parents: aged in late thirties, professionals of some kind

child: a boy of about two, who is screaming, running around, throwing stuff, hitting random strangers.

mother goes: 'ask him what's wrong.'

father goes: 'are you tired, thomas? do you want to go to bed? are you upset, thomas?'

i was shocked, i thought, how can this obviously intelligent, successful man expect this poor tiny kid to TELL him when he's been kept up too late. what does he want, a signed faxed memo that says 'dad, i am overtired and overexcited, please put me to bed now'?

[meg]

There are some parents out there who want to be "friends" with their kids...they get upset and worry that their kids won't "like" them. They just want their kids to be "happy". What is that all about? We are the boss of the family...friends are equal and parents are not equal to their kids! Our parents did not worry about this...often I did not like them much when they wouldn't let me do something I wanted to do...but that was their job! I should NOT have been going to a club with my girlfriends in the city at the age of 15! I wasn't happy and I got over it. My mom was my mom, and though we were most often friendly, we were not friends!

We also had a little bit of healthy fear of them. We didn't walk around IN fear or anything, but we knew that they were the boss. In fact, I remember telling my mom that I was going to go to that club anyway, and that she couldn't stop me and she said "You're right. I can't. But eventually you will come back home and then you will have to decide if it was worth it. Things won't be the same." I was scared enough of my parents not to go. Not so scared of getting spanked at 15, but scared of disapointing them that much.

The thing is, this all starts now when they are young (mine are a pre-schooler and a baby). I'll give the 9 week old a break, but the idea that my three year old has to like me all the time or be happy all the time is crazy. It is my JOB to do things that he is not going to like because I am the boss. "No, you can't eat a cookie 1/2 and hour before dinner. No, you can't go run around the parking lot and play chase". When he does it anyway than I have to take it to the next level so that the next time he doen't do it. (Sent to your room until dinner since you can't be trusted in the kitchen? A light smack on the butt for doing something as dangerous as run around in a parking lot? Absolutely)

This is not to say that you don't love them or respect them, of course you do, and they know it. I knew my mom loved me because she would not let me go to that club, and my son knows I love him because I won't let him play in a parking lot. He knows I respect him because as he stands by the car, like he is supposed to, even when I walk around to put his brother's car seat in on the other side, and a friend's child runs around quite dangerously in my opinion, the friend says "Wow, he really stays put when you tell him too...I wish mine would do that" and I can say "Yes, I can trust him to listen". He's proud of himself when he makes me proud of him.

I think it depends on the kid, the situation, and the level of anger/frustration being felt by the parent at the time. I have sent my three year old to his room for a time out because I felt that maybe I was a little too angry to deal with the situation rationally...I took some time to calm down and then dealt with it. Spankings shouldn't be a regular part of your discipline routine...if they are then they aren't working.

This parking lot thing may sound weird but it actually happened. Who lets their pre-schooler run around a paking lot, I ask you? Sheesh.

[Kathleen]

No one hits anyone in our house. That means we don't spank and it was not tolerated when our son tried to hit us, other kids or the dogs. We don't scream at each other either.

My parents never hit me (including spanking), but they treated me with respect and, this is key, expected it in return. My parents were also very consistant. I think a lot of discipline problems stem from parents trying to buy peace at any price and then becoming upset when the price gets too high.

Logical consequences worked for my parents and they have worked fine for me. People often compliment me on how polite my son is and he is a very kind person.

I think parenting without spanking is harder than knowing you've got that to fall back on. It requires a good working knowledge of what is age appropriate behavior and what are realistic expectations. But I also think it's worth it.

[RainbowW]

my kids are sensitive enough that a sharp "NO!" sends them into an emotional tailspin. both my sons throw themselves on the floor and cry; my daughter runs to the nearest wall, buries her face and cries.

we reserve spankings -- one wallop on the bottom, hand only, diaper on -- for situations that are life- or health-threatening. for example, running in the street, throwing things (our current bugaboo; they don't have enough control to not hit you in the face, a danger to the eyes), hitting, all get you a whack. but you do get warned first.

the other thing that gets their attention without hitting them is picking them up by their shirt-fronts. this only works when your kids start to learn relative sizes -- you're big and they're not. all you do is life them up by the front of their shirts, let their little legs dangle, and give them a talking-to. it helps if you have the upper-body strength to hold them out at arm's length with one hand, but doing it with two hands works well too.

[Annie]

Assvice Alert - I don't have kids. I speak entirely about what I remember of my own childhood and how my parents raised me and from a very short stint as a pre-school teacher.

I would never, under any circumstances hit a child. Mine or anyone elses. We were rarely disciplined. Our parents were fun and kind and generally I remember wanting to make them happy and proud of me so I generally did what I knew they wanted me to do. Notice I said generally. I was a child, not an angel after all. Becuase we weren't disciplined too often when we were it was a BIG deal. Punishment was reserved for occasions that really warrented it (picking all of our neighbors lovely daffadils, riding our bike off the sidewalk and into a busy road, being cruel to a younger neighbor are a few I remember) Even something like loosing TV privilages or being sent to bed early felt shameful and instantly stopped us in our tracks. I'm not saying that would work with every kid but it worked with us.

One of the worst things I see with parents and kids these days is the insane amound of NO's being shouted. There seems to be a lack of graduated punishment and too many arbitrary rules that are only intermittently enforced. Just last week I was in Barnes and Nobel (the epicenter of bad kid behaviour in my neighborhood it seems) and there was a mother shouting at her child for tying and untying his shoe while she was reading a story to him. she was tapping his hand and shouted "No! Stop it!" over and over. A few minutes later her response was exactly the same when he yanked his sister's hair and made her cry. I don't understand why tying and untying his shoe was something that warented the same response as hurting his sister. I'm not sure why it warrented any response at all really. He was about 4 so fidgiting seems like a pretty normal behaviour. The kid was bored and getting frustrated but as his behaviour escalated her response didn't. If a constant stream of no is all a child hears it looses its effect entirely.

We didn't have a lot of rules growing up but the ones we had were inforced without fail. We could predict our parents response with 100 percent accuracy. If we insisted on wearing a t-shirt and no coat ouside in the rain or sleeping with the light on our parents pretty much let us do what we wanted. But if we were disrespectful to an adult, hit someone, cursed at our parents or another adult etc. we knew with 100 percent certainty that there would be consequences and that they would not be fun. Consequences were generally lost privilages or possesions, bedtime right after dinner, sitting in the corner, guilt and shame, physical labor (one fall I remember having to rake all of my neighbors leaves for free but I don't remember what my offense was.

The other thing that my parents always did was give us a lot of appropriate ways to get our energy out. That is something I think a lot of kids who spend far too much time indoors these days lack. A tired kid = happy parents. We ran around a lot. We rode our bikes everywhere. We climbed trees. We built snow forts. We spun around in circles till we fell down. We collapsed in bed at 8 o'clock because we were exhausted, sweaty and worn out.

This was all a long winded way of saying that in my opinion being consistant with whatever method you choose is the key to everything. If you make rules they must be inforced 100 percent of the time. But don't overload your kids with rules that you can not or will not enforce.

[MollieBee]

I just make my daughter stand on her head till she feels like behaving again.

Seriously, Stinker is a butthead. One time I yelled "do you want a spanking?!" and she said: "yes!". I almost died laughing.

[eve]

Greetings here from a well-adjusted, and spanked, child. I am now 27 years old and have no negative repercussions from receiving spankings.

This is not to say you should spank your kids, and not to say you shouldn't. Just to say, here's one example of a person who had no negative repercussions from it.

Did my parents ever beat me? No, never. No marks, no items ever used (ie I was never hit with a belt or a wooden spoon or the like.) Were there ever any sessions where my parent was hysterically angry or crying or screaming? Not that I can remember, which leads me to believe that they never put a hand on me as a result of their own rage, but rather used the spankings as a means to get my attention toward some important disciplinary lesson.

I guess however my parents did it was OK if we judge by the end result - a law-abiding, functioning, healthy adult! However, I don't know what their secret was.

My $.02: If it makes you feel bad, it's probably not the right thing to do in that instance.

There will come a time when a child is old enough to do serious harm to themselves, but not old enough to understand/appreciate the situation with words. Sometimes a swat/spank/hiding might reinforce the lesson/deter them from the problem long enough to keep them out of danger.

Anything used too often will usually lose its power - therefore I'm sure the more things merit a spanking, the less effective the spanking will be as a deterrent. Also, the older a kid gets, the less you will be able to use physical force on him, so if spanking is the only means of discipline, it will lose its effectiveness.

Should other people discipline your kids? Probably, if it's appropriate (as it would be in a school or caregiver situation) but should other people ever lay a hand on your children - probably not. Only because you can never be "inside" their hand and that's an awful big risk to take. IMHO, it also sends a message that their bodies are not sacred, since you've given someone else the power to put their hands on it.

And finally, I don't think a parent should ever rage at their child. Whether it's yelling, screaming, hitting, or whatever, the child absorbs the rage a lot more than they do the words or the touching. I think we want our children to absorb our loving discipline, and not our rage at them.

[sophie]

tertia, you are sooo right! i am the mother of two girls (9 & 7) and i am also a cashier at a busy grocery store. the number of parents i see trying to bribe their little brats into behaving for two minutes with the purchase of a chocolate or candy (and yes, i know, having the candy right there sucks, but i am just the cashier, not the store owner or the merchandising designer!)
whenever i am out with my two, or when they go to other people's homes, i hear about how beautifully behaved they are. this is because i WORK at it, all the time. i happen to believe that a tap on the butt is not the end of the world, but i have never needed to spank my younger daughter, as she is the type of kid that needs a lot of parental approval. my older one, on the other hand, needs very firm rules and guidance, and has needed the occasional spank. the important part, imho, is consistency -- my kids know not to whine, because i will never respond. i will never buy the candy at the checkout. if they misbehave in public, i will remove them from the situation each and every single time. and i never make threats that i will not follow through on. by the same token, i also keep each and every promise i make to my girls. (i just think long and hard before promising anything!)
i also second previous posters about an overabundance of rules -- if you keep it simple, and don't sweat the small stuff, when something serious happens, your kid will know that you are for real.
just one caveat on the "tired kid= happy parents" thing. my older daughter is of the variety that gets more hyper the more tired she is. one christmas, i swear she was vibrating three feet off the floor, she was so exhausted. so i do my level best to make sure that she is not overly tired before bed, or anytime that she needs to be on her best behaviour. she is not capable of slowing herself down enough to fall into bed; she would just keep going. (and she has been like this since birth -- combine that with colic, and you can just imagine how tired i was!)
love to the whole g & d family.

[Alana]

I am all for an arm grabbing and a smack to the butt when they're little and need it. In case of a full blown tantrum in public I picked them up and took them home. I have yet to see "a good talking to" to a disobediant toddler be really affective. Maybe there are exceptions, I just haven't seen. Because I set clear boundries fro my children to follow they knew what to expect and none of the 3 have ever gotten a swat past the age of 3 or 4. Plus none of my 3 got anymore than 5 spankings total in their life. When my littlest one was 2 to 3 she used to throw fits and I'd tell her she can throw it in her room. When she was done and felt like talking she could come out. That worked very well for her. I know all three of my kids were different but They are now 13,11 and 5 and seem pretty well adjusted.

[Mollie]

Just be yourself. (i.e. asshole)

The kids will do the rest.

[Angela]

I agree with a light smack on the bum and then an explanation as to why. I love my 8 month old son very much but I have no qualms about instilling discipline into him. Also, I don't want to be outsmarted by my own offspring!

I was rarely smacked as a child, but I do recall my parents yelling at me and that is something I want to avoid with Oliver. My husband was smacked as a child. His mother used to make him wait until his dad came home and dad had to administer the beating with a belt. Lucky for my husband that his dad was a big softie and he would hit the bed instead and tell Brenton to make out he's crying so his mum would think it's real.

[Tanya]

Found myself explaining to Neale and David the difference between a democracy and an authoritarian regime. As it turns out they do not live in a democracy - yet.

Seriously, tried the gentle smack but it made me feel worse. I now reserve it for extreme cases of endangering either yourself or your brother where an instant reaction is needed. Time out works pretty well (not much to do in the bathroom if your Mother removes the toilet paper and tightens the taps). Also this is something I am extremely comfortable with Lavender using when I am not home. She does it better than I do and has a range of time limits worked out depending on how severe the crime was she is also really good at explaining to them why she is doing this. I insist that they respect her and listen to her because when I am not there she is the supreme authority.

It is not always easy though. I too do not want to raise hooligans - what may be cute when you are 2 is not so cute when you are 8, 16, 32 etc. sometimes however you just have to laugh. Told David on Sunday that the bathroom had his name written all over it, he looks at me and cheeky as can be says "where Mommy where?"

[JENNY]

RainbowW I sincerely hope you are joking. I've never heard of anything more revolting.

"the other thing that gets their attention without hitting them is picking them up by their shirt-fronts. this only works when your kids start to learn relative sizes -- you're big and they're not. all you do is life them up by the front of their shirts, let their little legs dangle, and give them a talking-to. it helps if you have the upper-body strength to hold them out at arm's length with one hand, but doing it with two hands works well too

[Rhonda]

Gee, Tertia, you do like to get people responding, don't you?

This is what works for us, so far:

We do not spank our daughter. But we discipline and set serious limits... and we punish when necessary. We use time-outs, and we take away privileges (bedtime stories, television, dessert). Respect/manners/cooperation are top priorities, and if we are in public that especially includes not bothering others around us. (I am determined that no one will ever have reason to rant about us on a childfree forum!)

Fortunately my daughter is sensitive enough that "This is the second time I have asked you not to (X specific behaviour). If you do it again you lose one bedtime story tonight" is an effective threat. (Sometimes it prompts a "No, no, NO!" meltdown, but we don't give in to meltdowns (though if we are in public we will take her out of the room/restaurant/store until she calms down (or else we just go home), because otherwise it is not fair to others.)

But that's only half the story. I also tell her exactly what she is doing right and praise her for it (and sometimes reward after the fact with extra bedtime stories, but never bribe). It also means that if I think she will be too hungry to behave, I feed her first. If she will be too bored, we bring quiet toys or books. And if she will be too tired, we simply don't go (or get a sitter).

[Chrissy]

Tertia, not sure if anyone has replied from a nannies point of view, so i'll give it a shot :)

I basically take my disciplining from the parents, I dont hit/spank the kiddies, because they dont. The only time I have ever hit them is when they were going through the hitting phase, telling them no didnt work, time out didnt work, so I told them if they hit me I would hit them back and of course they had to try it on and both of them hit me, so i slapped them on the hand - well you should have heard the tears - you probably could have all the way over there - but they have never hit me again.

Ordinarily I do time out in the bedroom and that seems to work, if they are throwing their toys they get 1 chance and after that the toys go in the rubbish bin (actually they go in the hallway cupboard but they dont know that).

Other than that I just set firm boundaries, and I am deifinitely in charge. I find taking away treats is a great dare I say it blackmailing tool, if Cam (the 4yr old) is playing up I tell him he wont get to go to kindy (like thats ever going to happen)!! If they cant/dont or wont play nicely together then they get to play in seperate rooms.

Also now that they are getting a bit older I expect them to do more, they have to put all of their rubbish in the bin, put their shoes and jackets away, put their dirty clothes in the washing basket after the bath, put their dirty plates on the bench after dinner, I also expect them to say please and thank you, and I am trying to teach them not to interrupt when someone else is taking.

Now that i've written a book :)

also i've come to the conclusion that an ibex is definitely something julie made up :)

[aggie]

Every child responds differently to different discipline. What works for one child may not work for another. You just might find Kate responds to a firm NO! While Adam might need a pop on the butt or it may be the other way. What ever you decide, remember that is your decision and no one should make you feel bad about it. There are many people in you life that will question it...not just those here in the internet. We had a school teacher decide it was her job to dictate how we disciplined our daughter (my step daughter actually). I guess I should say we have a no hitting rule in the house. Not because we don’t think a pop on the butt isn’t acceptable, but because my step daughters were physically abused by their mother. When my now 14 year old was about 11 this teacher became a major thorn in our sides. She is a kid with behavioral problems and mental health issues and she was in a special program at her school. Daily phone calls. Notes home. “You can’t take away her stuffed animals as punishment” “you need to use a star chart” “make her sit on the stairs for a time out” “you can’t give her a time out, you need to take away her stuffed animals”. It was crazy! We fought the school system to have her removed from this ladies class. No one would help us. This teacher was positive her form of discipline was the answer, that we as parents had no idea what we were doing. We sat back and said fine. We’ll play the game. Then my daughter took a knife to school. A butter knife that was scooped into her book bag while I was setting the table and getting her to clean up her homework. Homework that was being done on the kitchen table because her teacher’s recent rule was “all homework should be done on the kitchen table”. The butter knife was found and immediately turned in, no one was threatened, no other student was shown the knife. She was suspended and removed from the school (good ol’ zero tolerance). Best thing to ever happen. It taught us a very important lesson. Do what you think is right for your child and everyone else can go to hell.

[VHMPrincess]

Our son is so well behaved...but every now and then he likes to test us and make sure we're paying attention.

For us, if in a restuarant, having to go sit in the car with mommy while daddy finishes dinner is the worst punishment ever(daddy is the favorite)...of course this sucked for me and hubby the ONE TIME we had to do it, but the point was made and son knows that when I say "Stop it or we're going into the car", I mean it.

He doesn't misbehave at other people's houses or in stores. I believe there are a couple of key reasons for this...
1. we don't let him misbehave at home. Not behaving or doing things he's not supposed to automatically leads to the removal of the toy of my choice, no questions, always.
2. when we do have to administer a talking to, it is done at his eye level, face to face, stern voice, clipped sentences so that he knows we are not happy with something. I've seen parents saying from across the room "Johnny, please stop that" as they carry on whatever conversation they were having w/company..that doesn't work. You need to get up and get their attention.

BUT - what works for some, doesn't for others. My best friend has a son that she doesn't need to even be as harsh as we are...simply saying "don't do that" in a very nice voice to him will get him to stop...

I think the key is start w/an approach and see if it works. Keep modifying until you find what works for your kids....

[Slim]

As others have said, there's a huge difference between "no discipline" and "no spanking." Misbehavior has negative consequences for our kids--it's just that physical punishment isn't one of the consequences. But leaving a place if you aren't behaving there, losing a toy if you aren't behaving properly, having an outing cancelled because you haven't been following instructions during the time before we left--these are just some of the forms our swift and terrible vengeance takes.
The main thing (as others have also said) is to be consistent and to follow through. I am amazed at the number of parents who will tell their child to do something a couple of times and then give up if the child won't. Yes, younger kids need a little time to process and follow instructions, but if your (general you) child is still running when you've told him to stop, grab his arm or shoulders or whatever. Make it happen.
The other thing that astounds me is parents who try to talk their children out of being mad at them when the parent enforces a rule. Parenting is not a popularity contest. Let her sulk, then play with her as soon as she's willing to be pleasant again.
Disciplining children is not fun, but children have a happier childhood when people can stand to be around them.

[susan]

Oh T - you do my heart good!! I also felt this way over Easter when relatives brought their 2 year old for the weekend. He would fall full force on whichever dog was closest (mine are both under 5 lbs) and pull each ear in a different direction as hard as he could. Apart from keeping the dogs locked away the entire weekend, I had no choice but to give the parents a chance to use this as a lesson on how to behave.

These parents believe in "love over logic" parenting. They NEVER use the word NO unless it's LIFE OR DEATH, they claim.

Believe me, it shows. This kid is a DEMON!

Instead of picking him up every 20 minutes and putting him in a time out (which I've never seen work in a 2 year old by the way), it is my firm belief that a swift smack on the bum and a very firm "NO!" would have had a much better impact and we all might have had a few moments of peace over the weekend.

Instead, we were all constantly watching this kid intentionally knock over wine glasses, throwing books and temper tantrums in general and torturing the dogs. That's when he wasn't lifting his mom's shirt up and demanding boob that is.

Most manipulative little shit I've ever met.

Believe me, my kid will understand very early on when mommy says NO, she freakin means it. If it takes a swat on the bum to reinforce that the first few times, so be it.

It'll save me the trouble of bailing him out of jail when he's 12.

[Judy]

Tertia - do what works for YOU (within reason - pulling out their toenails is probably not a reasonable discipline measure).

With my 5.5 year old, time outs work well, as well as loss of privileges - TV, games, friends over, staying up 10 minutes past bedtime...

When he was younger, I used a lot of redirection, and I can count on three fingers the number of times I attempted to spank him - all three times were incidents where he was in immediate danger (running into the street, for example), and he never did it again.

My DH, however, has a slightly different philosophy - he thinks we should spank more. But, I just don't see a time (yet) where corporal punishment was necessary. He's a good kid, time outs work, and I am a crappy spanker.

Kids are going to make mistakes, and the most important part of discipline, no matter what your approach, is CONSISTENCY. Don't let them get away with something unless it is something they will always be allowed to get away with. Inconsistency will destroy ANY discipline program.

So, whatever you choose to do, remember to be consistent. It is the best thing you will do for your child.

[Rosemary]

I was brought up by exceedingly strict parents, who did smack, but who more often than not, used fear. They disciplined all desire to "have a go" out of us for fear of making a mistake and getting in trouble. For years, I wouldn't pour my own milk on my cereal, because I was too afraid of spilling it and getting into trouble. I was ten. Another example, I was too afraid of not getting an A (and therefore getting in huge trouble) in the hardest level of mathematics in my last year of high school so I chose an easier maths and then was unable to do my chosen course of study at university. I was more afraid of my parents wrath at a B, than I was of screwing up my whole future. Same with all of my sisters.

My parents kept us out of danger, they kept us alive, they produced very well mannered and reasonably disciplined children. I love them to death, and I'd do anything for them but I've had to work very hard to not be afraid any more. I've still got some work to do as I'm deathly afraid of telling my family about my IF treatment (they don't believe in IVF etc). It effects all four of us to this day as we all have to work really hard to actually start something that we are not sure that we can do properly, we are all pleasers and get ourselves into terrible messes because we still have trouble saying no and think that no-one will like us unless we say yes to everything.

So, in my rounabout way, I'm saying that well disciplined children are a must, but please don't over-discipline them to the point of paralysis and fear. A child who will give somthing a go is as important as one who respects other people's boundaries and has some self-control. I have absolute faith that you and Marko will be able to find that nice balance.

[Kam]

Do K&A have her and his rods yet? ;)

Yes, I agree, kids seem so much wilder and less empathic these days. Parents seem to allow so much destruction and violent behavior without much response, if they even notice.

It's impossible to know what kind of discipline environment a stranger's children live in when you just watch the family in a store, but I do feel that those kids are not attached well to anyone. Their behavior is the only way they have to deal with their frustration and loneliness. The children climbing the walls seem so disconnected and almost in panic mode. The kids I know who have loving environments at home seem not to want to hit and destroy at that level (though every kid goes through stages of experimentation with boundaries, and has moments of fatigue and frustration, especially if no one's REALLY listening).

I think spanking and time outs just push them further into their own bubbles of loneliness and bad feelings. Connection seems to bring out their best.

Have you seen _Playful Parenting_ by Lawrence Cohen? A GREAT book about connecting to work through problems instead of pushing away.

So, in a nutshell, yes to close and careful discipline. No to isolation, rejection, and punishment.

A helpful thing I heard early on was to save the "no's" for really important times. The more they hear that word, the less it means. Say yes in the ways you can. "Yes, you can do that...in the bath." "Sure, you can play with it here, but we're not going to buy it." "You can punch...over here on this pillow." Works like a charm in my experience.

[Moxie]

I would never spank because I was spanked and it made me feel sorry for my mother. She was (and is) such a great, in tune mom in so many other ways. When she spanked us it just seemed like she was out of control, and I remember feeling really bad for her, like we'd gained control over her.

I completley understand the urge to spank. I mean, I have a three- year-old. But honestly, it takes so much more patience and creativity to discipline without spanking that spanking just seems like the easy way out. Like you've given up, and truly given the control over to your kids. I can remember my brother being in trouble for something and knowing he was going to have to face the music with my mom (having to talk about why it happened and how they should fix it and what his appropriate punishment would be) and then he'd just call her a name or do something else to make her mad and that was it--she'd spank him and he'd never have to have the hard talk about what he did. He was definitely manipulating her into spanking him so he wouldn't have to actually face any real disipline.

The problem is that spanking does work in the sohrt run, because it gets your kids to stop doing what you want them to stop doing in that moment. But I don't think it does much long-term. My goal is to get my kids to think about what they're doing and develop inner controls, not just to stop doing things they shouldn't when I'm around and can see them. And I absolutely don't want kids who will sneak around and do stuff behind my back. Spanking creates that (I can say from experience).

Personally, I think you can't just all of a sudden expect your kids to obey you. Discipline has to start from the beginning--having appropriate expectations, knowing what your kids can and can't do, being consistent. All of that is really hard, exhausting work, but it pays off because it puts you and your kids in tune with one another. My son is by no means an angel, but he's not out of control and he has way more of an internal focus and ability to prioritize and wait than many of his 3-year-old friends.

I think the myth that if you don't spank you don't discipline is kind of silly. In my observation, it's actually the opposite--people who don't discipline have to resort to spanking because their kids haven't learned the ability to control themselves.

[buttercup]

Well, I have no living children, but am expecting a son in June, so this is an issue I think about quite a bit.

I think the biggest key in discipline is being consistent, and having follow-through. The parents with the worst behaved children seem to be the ones who make a lot of threats, but never follow-through on the threat. "If you do that again, Johnny, you're going to get a time out" then Johnny does it again, and recieves another verbal, whining warning. I also think that parents who regularly raise their voice and shout teach their children to just tune them out.

I was not spanked as a child (can maybe remember receiving one or two light taps on the butt, but that's about it). I had enormous respect for my parents and for the rules. My parents rarely raised their voices, so when they did yell, the kids scattered!

I do not plan on using physical discipline with my son - but I do think that there may come a time where he'll do something that scares the crap out of me, and may result in him getting a smack on the bottom. I hope I'm not too hard on myself when/if that happens. We're human. Mostly, I want to try and be consistent.

I know a mom who will laugh at a certain behavior from her kids one day, and blow up about that same behavior the next. As a result, her children are very wild. She also thinks her daughter (who in my opinion is just plane rude) is "sassy." There's a v. big difference between rudeness and sassiness.

Well, I'm rambling, but I guess my two weapons will be:
Consistency and follow-through. Thankfully, my DH and I are of the same opinion regarding discipline - I really feel for couples who differ on this issue!

[Mandy]

I'll go back and read the other comments later - don't want to forget what I wanted to say.

Growing up, there was a before and after. As in my mom before the abuse started and after. I can't claim to know what caused the change, but I can say this. Up until I was 10, I was maybe spanked once or twice and that was it. If I did something wrong, my mom talked to me about it. She would say something along the lines of such and such is not okay, and then she would point out a more acceptable behavior.

Honestly, I remember one time I was in trouble for something, she talked to me about it and I went and PUT MYSELF in the corner. *laugh* Her words were way more effective than any spanking she could have given me.

Later she became abusive - I'm not talking just spankings or an occasional swat, I mean full on abuse and I want to make it very clear that I do see the difference! The thing is, no amount of times she used or threatened a spanking or violence made me respect her. I learned to fear her and I have watched my brother learn an anger from her that frightens me.

There is a fine line, I believe. And, I think more often than not it makes sense to use distraction, consequences and the like to discipline a child instead of being physical. There are times when a child must be removed from a situation, but again...that's not a whipping.

[Moxie]

Tess, you can NOT be serious that you actually heard someone say, "ohhhh, did you do that because mummy said something that made your heart hurt?"

I am howling with laughter. (And the Adele Faber books that Jody recommended--I also love the sibling rivalry book--have been out for years, so they're definitely out in paperback.)

[Tine]

Sadly, I don't have time to read all the comments this morning, to get the gist of discussion -- but just wanted to add my thoughts. Will read up later.

In my view, "discipline" means "teaching". I'm trying to teach my son WHY he can/can't do certain things and give/revoke rewards & privileges that are logically related to his behavior. I just can't see how hitting him (or physically hurting him) could ever be logical or constructive: (e.g. "No hitting! Hitting hurts people!" SMACK!) I do think sometimes it's necessary to physically restrain a child who's about to hurt someone else or himself. But to me, corporal punishment says "Do what I say, not what I do," when my kid is MUCH more likely to follow my example rather than my words.

So far it's working for me. But my kid's only two right now. We'll see what happens when he's older and couldn't care less about pleasing me. ;)

[Tracy]

What we started with - 1-2-3 Magic. And it has worked for us for 11 years. And counting. With two very different type children. I don't know yet if it's working with the third. We only have two rules for him at this point, and the only discipline is saying no-no, we don't touch the lamp, and moving him away again. over and over and over and over again. It's beginning to work - now he looks at the lamp that we don't want him to touch, says no-no, and then touches the lamp. Next phase will be him saying no-no and leaving it alone. hopefully. (he's 13 mos now)

My two most basic rules are - don't discipline in anger (because if you're contemplating time-out for forever... that's too much. give your child a short time-out and tell them that you'll let them know the consequences later! and then give yourself a time-out before you hurt yourself.) and the second rule is consistency. Because if you let it slide, it will come back to haunt you.

I guess I have lots of advice on this subject. We decided early on not to use spanking. A long decision making process. But we decided a few things, and used 1-2-3 Magic as the cornerstone of what we decided to do. oops, I'll add a third rule - let the child know in advance what the consequences are. At least once. I like being able to say - hey, I told you A would happen if you did B.

I am making this sound as if I know everything. As if.

[Beth]

Moxie is right on with her post.

My big peeve is when people assume "no spanking" = "no discipline".

In my experience, it's not the gently disciplined kids that are running wild - it's the spanked ones. Because their parents have no clue how to properly discipline a child and therefore resort to spanking. And then when they're out in public and can't spank, they fumble around trying to get the child to do what they want and they have no idea what to say or do.

I have one of the most well-behaved kids you'll ever see, and she was never spanked. I can't even imagine hitting her.

Invariably someone will think, "well, you got an easy one, you don't have to hit her." To that I would say, "Bullcrap!" I worked my ass off to make her into the good citizen she is - gentle discipline is not easy, but the results are worth it.

[Nopenname]

DD has been spanked maybe a total of three times, Once I was taking fries out of the oven, and usually I tell her to stand at the line where carpet meets Lino and she does, this time she keept inching closer and I kept telling her back and she would for like a second. I told her NO, No, No. Hot, Dangerous, No. And after I finally got her back enough and had the hot pan of fries in my hands she proceeded to walk over and try and GRAB hold of the hot Oven rack. I put the fries down in the oven quick grabbed her arm, took her out in the living room and said "You listen. The Oven is Hot. Dangerous." And gave her a swat and guided her out into the living room toward her toys crying. I didn't feel bad about it at all mainly because She was being WILFULLY Disobedient she had gotten it in her little two year old head that regardless of what I said she was doing it anyway.

One of the other times She was holding Dada's hand as he was opening the car door. And he's talking to her the whole time about holding his hand and being a good girl and unlocking the door (constant parent directional chatter) and she lets go of his hand and BOLTS straight out into the parking lot. He tries to grab her and she goes Giggling off at top toddler speed. He gets to her and spanks her and looks right in her eyes and tells her that it's DANGEROUS and a no no. She cried more than I've ever seen her cry, because Dada SPANKED her and Dada never says so much as "no" to her. But you know since then every time we go out she goes "Hand" and holds her hand up to walk with us.

I don't feel GOOD for having to spank her but I feel justified, or right in doing so. I think that at some points other things just don't work.

Right now She has no concept of time, and she thinks every time out means she is going to go night night so that doesn't work for us. Usually redirection and forceful voice works just fine. Some things I can just snap at her and point to where I want her to be and she does it because I give her "the look". Other things like getting EVERY SINGLE BOOK off of the bookshelf is a CONSTANT battle regardless. Apparently taking the books down outweighs punishment in levels of fun.

Lis Doesn't act scared of me and I love her and she knows it. But I also need her to know that somethings just AREN'T accepted ESPECIALLY when she already knows it's a no-no.

[Egg Donor]

Just an additional comment on sending kids to their room. The problem with that as punishment, of course, is that rooms are often not much punishment. Toys, games, lots of other fun stuff in there. Plus, we used to sneak out with excuses of needing a drink or needing to go to the bathroom. So mom decided instead of sending us to our room, she'd send us to the bathroom. There's no reason to leave, but also nothing fun to do in there. 10 minues of punishment like that was WAY more effective than being sent to our room.

[Egg Donor]

Ok...I just can't shut up. I just read susan's comment about her nephew torturing the dogs and doing things like that. Recalling your post a few days back about when to say things to other people's kids, I would have had absolutely no qualms to letting out a very firm "we do NOT do that to the dogs in MY HOUSE" followed by my mom's favorite "DO YOU UNDERSTAND ME?!"

I just thought her post gave the perfect example of where it is totally reasonable to act, even if the parents won't.

[Susan]

I do not believe in spanking, at all. That said, I think the important point of all this is to not lose sight of what the word "discipline" actually means. Discipline, according to the American Heritage College Dictionary, is defined as "training expected to produce a specific character or pattern of behavior, especially training that produces moral or mental improvement."
So discipline is teaching your child what is right and wrong, what is acceptable and unacceptable behavior. My daughter is now four and she knows that when I present to her the consequences of continuing her unacceptable behavior, I mean it. I have taken away TV privileges, toys, and even left a store or two because she decided that she wasn't going to stop whatever was unacceptable (a tantrum, running away from me). I do not give empty threats, I definitely follow-through.
Of course, when they are young (under 2, maybe even 3) you don't use punishment but you do lay the groundwork with your own behavior and telling them 'no' or 'we don't hit'. And believe me, you will say 'no' so much when they are young.
I think a balanced approach of expressing why you are upset (It hurts my feelings when you hit me) with boundaries and consequences is the way to go. At least for us it is.

BTW, your post about other parents not intervening when their child is walking on the leather couch with shoes is so appropo right now. My BF is really lacking in setting boundaries for her daughter- so I do it when they are in my home and whenever she is interacting with my daughter. It's hard but I have to, I have boundaries for my daughter and if the other child doesn't, it gets really confusing as to what is right and wrong for her (my daughter).

That is my two cents worth.

[trixygirl]

Great topic. I got sucked into a show called Nanny 911 or Supernanny or Nanny to the rescue or something like that the other night, mostly because the kids behavior on the show was so atrocious that it was like a train wreck - I just couldn't stop watching. I have no assvice to give, since I don't have any kids, but we're in the process of adopting and this subject has come up recently with my husband. It's funny, when you're adopting and going through the application and homestudy process you're forced to talk about things, like what is our "discipline philosophy". We probably would have never even talked about this subject if we were able to have kids on our own until after they were born, and having their first temper tantrum... Surprise, surprise, my husband and I don't really agree on the subject, but we're slowly coming together... Thanks for the post, Tertia. And thanks to everyone for all of the great comments, suggestions, and funny stories. It's so nice to

[Stefanie]

That is exactly what is wrong with the world today! Many parents don't discipline their children.

My pediatrician has 6 kids and he recommends a smack on the behind if needed.

I agree with him. Spanking is not the main discipline tool in our house. But sometimes, time outs or removal or priveleges just doesn't cut it.

Also, there are things that I think need an immediate "shock value." Such as, if one of my kids runs out in to the street. They will get a spanking. That pain is very little compared to what it would feel like to be hit by a car. Both of my kids have run out in the street - but both have only done it once.

I don't believe in sugary sweet negotiating. The real world will not treat them that way.

We do a lot of time outs and removal of priveleges or items (tv, game boy, etc). But when those don't work then they get a spanking. On the bottom with a bare hand.

As far as other people spanking them, only my mother can do so. And that is rare for her.

I do know my daycare director popped my daughter's hand for trying to take the safety thing out of an outlet once. She said it was an involuntary reaction - but it could have saved her life so I wasn't upset. And she told me about it instead of keeping it to herself. Dd was too little to tell me so I might not have ever known.

[Heather]

Our daughter, Phoebe, is 4 1/2. She's an only child so we really try hard to make sure she's not spoiled. It's really hard and it takes a lot of energy. I do think sometimes parents spoil their children not just because they want to talk about feelings, but because they don't think they have the energy to do it.

Phoebe has been swatted on the bum a few times, but the favorites in our house are what my parents used to do to me. They would either send me to sit on my bed with no toys or have me put my nose against the wall. I've used both with Phoebe and they seem pretty effective. We recently sent her to a wedding shower with her Aunt without us, and we received lots of compliments on her manners and behavior. It was so nice to know that she can behave when we're not around.

[maia]

Hubby and I do not spank. Both of us were raised in homes where the line was crossed between discipline and abuse on occasion. Easier to just draw the line with NO physical consequences. Works for us.
Our kids get 123's and a negative consequence dependent on age. (For the 7 year olds that might be time out, which they HATE! And for the 12 year old a buck off his allowance, a huge tragedy for him ;)

[Kam]

Sorry to reply twice, but I just had to say something about the comments from Dawna and Rainbow. Pain and humiliation as parenting strategies? Sounds more like the Pentagon. I can't imagine many of us "really, really want to beat that kid." Wishing I hadn't read those comments now. Uggh.

[whitney]

I haven't read the rest of the comments yet but.......

My first child, time-out works like a dream. I send her to the time-out mat, she sits and thinks for 3 minutes, gets up and apologizes right away. She is a dream. For worse offenses, we start counting, she straightens out by 2. No idea what to do if we ever get to three, we've never had to!!

Now my second child.......we've tried time-out, talking it out, taking toys away, ignoring bad behavio(u)r--but the only thing that gets her attention is a smack on the hand. Not a beating but a "wake-up". She is the strongest-willed child I know.

So I guess it depends on the child is my answer! I, like you, refuse to allow my children to become the brats one sees while out to dinner/shopping/etc.

[kay]

i so agree with moxie...
spanking is giving up, it's letting showing that the strongest wins, that violence talks...
also did you know that in most of northern europe spanking is forbidden by law - and these are not countries well known for the hords of uncontrollable children roaming the streets :)

[Upnorth or Not]

Consistency. That's what it boils down to. However you choose to discipline your kids, you have to be consistent. And actually being with your kids. My kids do act all crazy when they want my attention and I'm on the computer. It's not b/c they are bad. It's b/c they want my attention.

[Lisa]

We spank ... okay, okay ... I say that - but I can't remember the last time I gave the 6, 9, 10 or 13 yo a spank (the 13yo is bigger than me now anyway! LOL) ... but definitely the 3yo will get one on the bottom every now and again, and I WILL do it in the supermarket if I think it is necessary ... that way, like the other kids, she will grow up (hopefully!) knowing that if I say "I'm counting to three and if you do that again I will give you a smack on the bottom" that I really do mean it ... just like if I say "no" ... I mean that too.

I can honestly say we have four very well behaved children, who respect other people and other people like (or so all the teachers, relatives, friends etc etc tell me, that or they're lying!) - and the funny thing? I hardly ever punish them, we've been through that when they were toddlers ... and now because they know I follow through with what I threaten or the first answer I give, there is no point in being naughty. Of course, they're not perfect - what child is? At the ages they are now I tend to send them to their room (I suppose Time-out) but more ... YOU got into YOUR room, and sort out YOUR head, and come out when YOU are in a better mood/going to stop winding your sibling up ... etc. The 3yo being a bit younger gets told if you don't stop ... whining/complaining/screaming/whatever ... by the time I get to three I will put you in your room, and she gets put in and gets told to come out when she is finished. The sit there in a corner for 5mins until I say you can move just never made sense to me - what are they learning? ... hopefully my way is teaching them to be in control of their anger/emotions whatever.

We ARE old fashioned ... we don't beat our children though, we don't yell abuse at them (in fact my children are the ones crying if someone else yells, they're just not used to it) ... but we do set FIRM boundaries and hopefully teach them respect.

[JuliaKB]

Our 3 year old knows that she is always loved. We tell her that we always love her, and that she is always a good girl, but that sometimes she behaves badly. It was very important to me to establish that difference in her mind very early. I had to fight my MIL about it too-- she would go with "you are being a bad girl" for infractions.
The other day one of her friends was over and he said something about her being stupid. She said "We don't have any stupid people here." We were very proud.
We also taught her very early that No means No. And that we are the ones in charge. When she is trying to argue about something "I don't want to do X, I want to do Y," and it's important to me that she does X, I ask her who is in charge here, and who sets the rules. She knows where that is going.
We try to tie the punishments to actions. Like if she is not picking up her toys, we will sit there until she does, but then she won't get a chance to have a book read before bed.
When she was younger, I found that restricting her ability to do something she wanted works well. Like sitting on my lap while she would rather play, but she can't until she apologizes for pushing me.
With her time outs work much better now that she is older.
But overall, she is a good kid, well behaved in public and at home. I like to think setting and enforcing the rules early had something to do with it. :)

[brooke]

i'm one of those childless folks who walks around thinking things about child rearing before i have my own (i'll be with child very soon after i finish my ph.d. which i start august of 06). i always thought the talking out the feelings bit was great.. until i started spending lots and lots of time with my friends who have a 7 year old daughter. *sigh* i found myself exiting out of my 'touchy-feely-hippie-aunt' mode, and into 'gotta-be-a-bit-firm' aunt mode. i discovered something.. it worked! when i just tell little 7 year old its gonna be a certain way when things just have to be a certain way, they go that way. she gets a bit miffed at me, but things move along and she always loves me in the end.

so my point. after being with 7 year old -- who, as she puts it, likes to help me practice being a mom --- i've decided that i'll probably do a bit of 'how does that make you feel' and a bit of 'just behave now, and if you don't, you might just get a bit of a smack on your behind.'

[Gina]

I use 1-2-3 Magic for several reasons. No yelling, no getting upset, no negotiating with a child and lastly it worked on me. My mother used a similar system on my two brothers and me. I can remember her holding up a finger and mouthing one from across the room. I have started counting my 18 mo old and she gets it.

It even works on my autism spectrum son.

No spanking is not no discipline.

Also, Let your children know what is expected of them. When they do not behave tell them. "Mommy did not like how you screamed in the store." AND let them know when they do behave. "Good job waiting for Mommy to finish her dinner."

Give them some insignificant choices and they will let you make the big choices. (What bowl do you want green or blue, Which shirt do you want to wear red or purple) Start this early so they will be used to it.

[Janonymous]

I think it depends on the kid & the situation. We were spanked at times as kids, and I know I earned it each time (lighting matches under the bed, etc!).

I have rarely spanked my daughter, and for physical-danger type infractions (running into street...) She is a very well-behaved child but control is important to her--controlling what she can, and knowing who controls what she can't. So losing our tempers is not as effective with her as remaining calmly, rationally in control and proving that to her. She's 4.

Example at restaurant: She wants ice cream, we say no because she hasn't eaten any supper. She throws a fit. One of us takes her to wait in the car, other parent pays bill & gets food to go. This kills her, as she loves restaurants.

Example at home: She wants to watch another video, I say no because we just watched one and it's time to play outside. She throws a fit. I send her to timeout and tell her to come out when she's ready to apologize. After a few minutes tantruming, she has it out of her system and comes to me; she is expected to tell me why she got in trouble and what she'd do differently next time. ("I'm sorry I yelled. I shouldn't have thrown a fit, I should have said okay when you said we couldn't watch another video, and maybe asked if we could watch it tomorrow.")

I have no patience with parents who don't follow through but just yell "stop it. stop it. stop it" over & over. Their kids have learned to tune them out, but it makes the rest of us nuts to listen. It's worse than doing nothing, i think.

Jan

[z.]

I do not kids but I have an opinios about this (what a shock!). My mom never spanked me and my father spanked my once. Is still remember why he did and I remember how I felt afterwards, I put two pijama bottoms that night out of fear he would spank me again. But, that did not matter while growing up, I KNEW my dad would do anything to protect me, and he loved me and all that. I was not traumatized by the experience, I was being reckless and my dad is human so he lost his patience, I never read anything more into that spank. So spanking once or twice is not that awful if you make sure the kid understands why he is receiving it... and if saying him to stop did not worked out.
That said, I also have a lot of faith in words, when they are said the rigth way. Firm and clear works wonders with most of the kids. I'm also the hippy happy aunt but the kid (2 y.o.) knows that if I say no is no, and I know what tone does this particular kid needs to understand an order, and you really need different tones with each kid.
So, my opinion, you asked? Set simple boundaries, make them respect those bounderies every.singe.time, at home or outside. Well-said words work some time, and some time they don't. And after that, it's your call.
sorry if this post is hard to read but i tend to switch tenses a lot. For the record, if this was spanish, the post would make perfect sense.

[Robin (from TLOL)]

Wow, the gentle discipliners are really in the minority this time... I saw that and figured I'd cast my vote too.

I want to very strongly second what Kam and some of the others said - gentle discipline does NOT mean no discipline. It DOES mean setting APPROPRIATE limits and boundaries and giving APPROPRIATE consequences for undesirable behavior. The difference is in what the appropriate consequences are, not what the appropriate infractions are. I would like to believe that everyone who posted here has the goal of raising responsible, respectable individuals who will grow up to be valued members of society. The difference is in what we feel are valid and effective means of achieving that goal.

We are a no spanking/hitting/popping/smacking/whatever you want to call it family. It feels completely wrong to us, and we don't feel that it achieves our goals for raising gentle, tolerant, fair-minded children. I can't see how you can tell a child every day that hitting is wrong and then hit them yourself when they misbehave (yes, EVEN if they're doing something dangerous). What is the lesson there? That it's only ok to hit if you're bigger and more powerful?

I agree that you have to know your child and what works for them, but hitting is simply not one of the tools in our parenting toolbox. We do set limits, and work damn hard at doing so, but we set them without resorting to violence, focusing instead on MUTUAL respect and understanding. That doesn't mean that I sit there all lovey-dovey with my 4 year old when he's acting out. When the situation warrants it or when he's not able to listen *at that moment*, the consequence (i.e. removal from scene, sent to his room, etc.) is immediate, but then at the end of that period, when he's able to be receptive, we talk about *why* he was in trouble and what behavior we expect next time. My kids certainly aren't perfect, but they are lovely, well-mannered children, within the boundaries of what is reasonable to expect from a child their age.

PS I too REALLY recommend both the "How to Talk..." books and Lawrence Cohen's (I think) Playful Parenting!

[Jillian]

I was spanked. I obeyed, and loved my parents, and had a great home life. Friends of my parents said my brother and I were so well-behaved. We knew the limits, and we knew the consequences.

My son is very strong willed and stubborn, like his mom. I start discipline with a stern NO and a clipped instruction. If it's not obeyed, I squat down, repeat the clipped instruction, and tell him I'll smack his hand if he doesn't stop or do what it is I'm saying. If he keeps being disobedient, I slap his hand or arm. If he keeps disobeying, I repeat the instruction, and slap hand/arm again. Only 2 or 3 times in his life have I then resorted to a real spank on the bottom (the hand slaps don't really hurt for more than a second, they are just a "wake up!!" kind of smack).

Despite his high activity level, energy, stubborness, and loudness (he's loud by nature) he is very very obedient. He also is very very happy all the time. Our preschool teachers always tell me they've never seen a happier, more obedient child.

There you go. Do what's in your parenting heart, and ignore the namby-pamby "oh, darling, you need to stop breaking the windown now dear, that hurts mommys feelings..." bullsh*t.

[sagewinna]

How do you teach a child it's not ok to hit when you show them by example that it IS ok, as long as you are bigger?

[Drama Queen]

I'm against spanking, but I'm a huge fan of discipline. I was born in the 70's and was not spanked.

Those people who don't discipline their kids at all are NOT representatives of the non-spanking culture. There's a HUGE difference between no spanking and no discipline. Repeatedly telling your child, "Don't do that," while they continue to do that discipline. All that teaches your child is that he can keep going while you say, "No," because you're not going to do anything about it.

My girls know there are limits and they know there will be consequences. Sure they act up on occasion, but even my spanking-loving in-laws tell us repeatedly how well the girls are behaved.

You have to provide discipline. That, however, doesn't have to be physical.

There are a bunch of great positive discipline books. Right now, we're using a tweaked version of "1,2,3 Magic" and we like it a lot. Before the girls were 2, though, we mainly used redirecting and that worked great. As they get older, though, they change and so your approach to discipline has to as well.

[Drama Queen]

Whoops, just found a mistake:

Repeatedly telling your child, "Don't do that," while they continue to do that discipline.

Should have read, "while they continue to do that is NOT discipline."

[Ingrid]

You said "I do not want to have ill disciplined, badly behaved brattish child. "

That's what my husband and I said too. We figured we'd stunt our kids' creativity and shit in favor of teaching them to behave so that people would *like* them. It seems to me that if you care about your kids' feeeeelings, you'll take into account it feels like shit to be 4 or 5 or 6 and realize no one outside your own parents can stand you.

We're kind of smug about our decision these days, as the boys are very well-liked by all our friends and extended family, and are expressly invited places other children aren't.

I'm not anti-spanking, but I do think there are more effective ways of shaping behavior. When I look back at the times I did smack a bum, I realize I was at my wit's end because I'd been slacking off the real work of parenting, which is setting limits and standards and making sure my kids observed them.

[Amy]

Let me preface by saying I haven't read any of the comments so I apologize if I am repeating.... I spank my kids. I don't beat them, but I do spank them on the bottom with my hand - especially if it's a situation where harm could have come to them (running into the street = spanking). They are now 8 and 9 years old, and I have not "had" to spank them in a year or so. When they were little my primary form of disipline was time out. With one of my boys, that was horrible. I had to sit behind the chair and HOLD HIM there. The same boy threw kitchen chairs, and said totally off the wall things (like "I am going to hurt myself/you"). With patience and consistancy, he has turned into a really wonderful little boy with a true sense of right and wrong. I cannot tell you how much this child scared me, but REALLY, even the most off the wall kid CAN come around. I guess the best advice I can offer is to ask a professional if you doubt yourself and always have hope because they can surprise you.

[Foster]

As an about-to-be university graduate with a degree in Applied Developmental Psychology (formerly known as child care and development), I can officially give my professional opinion on the discipline thing. Woo hoo! Personally, and professionally, I see spanking as unecessary. No, your kid will not be ruined if you spank him, but plenty of employees work with very disturbed kids that they are not allowed to hit, and will get the kids to behave. The methods that emphasize talking to your kids and explaining things to them can take a lot of practice to get right. Some people find it v easy and natural, some dont, but they do work the best. Yes, you have to actually get up and go over to them tell them exactly what you expect, and do it sympathetically, respectfully, and with authority. That is why parents that yell all the time have to yell all the time -- they do not take the time to re-direct their kids. So you say, "Stop fighting over these toys," but do you tell them what they should be doing with the toys? Play correction alone can require sitting down with fighting kids and problem solving and getting them started in a game together. Yes, it takes a long time and sometimes you have other things to do and wish they would just behave. The problem is, kids are not born just knowing what to do, or even having alternate patterns of behaviour to choose from. We have to give them those alternate patterns. Yelling certainly has it's place in dealing with kids, but if you find you are doing it all the time, then there is something you are not doing right. Kids really do need a lot of explainations, it is quite irritating. "I know you are upset, but Stop that b/c it ... You can do it here. Now come and help me ..." "I know you dont want to be shopping with me, but you need to stop running b/c you are getting in other peoples ways. You can run around when we get home. What kind of cereal should we get?" That type of thing. If they persist in behaviour, "I can see that running around is funny to you, but it is annoying other people. You need to come over here and hold onto the cart, or we will not be getting any snack cakes on this trip." This *might* not work on an unruly 10-year-old that you are meeting for the first time (although it might, they will always surprise you!), it will work if you use it on your kids all the time. I work with disturbed adolescents, and this method seems very tame, but it actually works well on them b/c they know we mean it when we offer a negative consequence.

Incedentally, I also *loved* the book Playful Parenting until I actually had to deal with kids ALL THE TIME and I will tell you, I am not as strong of a strategist as the author, and I cannot make everything funny. Great ideas from him, though.

[bridget]

I was hit as a child. When my parents got frustrated, we got hit. It left scars that took years (and lots of therapy) to heal. I resolved never to hit my daughter. She'll be 4 in May and has been smacked on the bum once by me and once by my husband. To her the worst thing in the world is a "body rest" in her room. She's had many body rests. I don't think that smacking is the answer - the answer is discipline - whatever works for you and your family.

[becky]

Love this topic! Wanted to respond before i read the other comments, but I'm very interested to hear what others say.

I agree with you 100%! I grew up the same as you - we occasionally got a slap on the tush. It was more scary than painful. It was a reminder that we had crossed a line. It didn't happen often because all my mom had to do was look at us a certain way, and we toed the line. My husband grew up in a similar way. His mom had what she called the "mush paddle" - a wooden paddle - that she would spank the boys with when they were extra bad. Again, she barely tapped them but the whole idea of it was usually enough to scare them into behaving. She too mostly used her eyes to get the boys under control. They didn't grow up "scared"! They both have plenty of self-esteem and love their parents very much.

My brother was even a bit of a wild-child, but he would NEVER misbehave in front of my mother! And honestly, he was polite to all adults. He just liked to play with matches.

I cannot stand how children have become so free with adults! A lot of kids seem to think they can behave snottily to grown-ups, which just shows how little respect they hold for their own parents. I think you have the right idea Tertia. Altho, I do think that after about age 5, the spankings don't work as well. But by then I think you've taught your kids to respect your authority and all you need is a stern tone of voice to get the desired result.

Thanks for posting such a great topic!

[Nance]

My husband and I refer to our daughter as "The Brat", and with good reason - she is often a brat. That said, we don't tolerate outright disobedience.

We have fairly clear rules (although trust the child of a lawyer to spot any and all loopholes immediately), and we (mostly) consistently enforce them. Public misbehaviour garners one warning, and then immediate removal from wherever.

Now, that said, there are so many things that I've seen other parents doing that I, while still childfree, thought was allowing the child to misbehave, and which I now, having survived the toddler years, realize are often the better way to handle things.

I'm not above spanking for certain behaviours - mainly those that involve injury to others, and we make liberal use of time out or removal of toys/privileges, but sometimes the best thing to do is to ignore a behaviour since any attention, even negative attention, reinforces it. I too used to roll my eyes at parents who stood watching a toddler having a tantrum in the middle of the grocery store; 10 years later, I AM that parent.

We're trying very diligently to raise a well-behaved, thoughful child(ren). We do talk to our daughter about why certain behaviour isn't appropriate because we want her to understand why we have certain rules, and to know that they're not arbitrary.

Check with me again in about 12 years and I'll let you know how the experiment is turning out. At the moment, our almost 5 year old is a happy, outgoing child who is reasonably well behaved, and generally a delight to be around. Our current challenge with her is lying (fibbing).

[maia]

"How do you teach a child it's not ok to hit when you show them by example that it IS ok, as long as you are bigger?" EXACTLY, great comment.

I feel very strongly about this. If parents are permitted to 'discipline' their children with swats, are husbands (bigger) allowed to 'discipline' their wives with swats? No, that is against the law.

Yet it IS ok to swat your child, someone much, much smaller than yourself who has far less options than a wife.

Perhaps I get my reasoning from being 'swatted, slapped, hit' too many times as a child and young teen. In hindsight I am sure my parents were not trying to 'discipline' me, they were simply acting out their rage. The line is a very thin one in my opinion.

[Graeme]

As a child, I got corporal punishment a lot. I actually don't think it did any good whatsoever - it just made me more devious. I particular, I was "punished" - no-one ever actually explained to me that what I was doing was hurting other people.

With my daughter, I only learned how to discipline correctly from my second wife. The key things are that the rules need to be known to the child, so that thery know what's expected; they need to know that they will be punished when they break the rules (and you have to *always* punish when you've said you will), and the punishment must be appropriate, and consistent.

Children need a framework they can understand and work within. If they don't know the rules, or get punished only erratically, there will be problems.

[Jael]

Assvice alert.

No kids here so this is pure theory of how I 'want' to raise my child.

I think each kid is different. Some need more physical reminders of barriers (like a gentel and/or strong tap). And some don't. And some need different amounts of both at different stages.

I think disciplining your child hurts you emotionally whether it's spanking or no spanking. I don't think people really want to reprimand their beloved child, but that's what a parent does.

In general I agree with other comments - 'permissive parenting' is in right now.

It's all theory for me though - until I have to put it into practice.... so that's my assvice for the day (I hope).

[vanessa]

my assvice:
dont hit your kids. ever. kids dont deserve to be hit for gods sake. they are CHILDREN, small creatures who depend on you--you!--for everything. spanking teaches kids that violence is okay, as long as the person pertuating the violence is bigger and stronger. its also taking the easy way out. it doesnt teach kids to deal with emotions.
kids have enough to deal with. they sure as hell dont need the threat of their parents hitting them to add to it.
and yes, i think spanking is abusive. i think violence is abusive.i understand the temptation to smack a kid, but goddammit, kids deserve better.

[Emily]

Congratulations to those parents who still believe in teaching their children right from wrong and who don't fall for the "spanking is evil" line. The comment from the person who said maybe she'd be a convert to the non-spanking cult if non-spankers' kids were well-behaved struck a chord. I remember looking at the website of a group called "Gentle Christian Mothers," who don't believe the "rod" in the Bible signified a means of physical discipline and who even eschew timeouts as being "punitive." Well, using the Gentle Christian Mothers to advertise "gentle discipline" is kind of like using the late John Candy or Chris Farley to advertise Weight Watchers: it doesn't work. Reading the Gentle Christian Mothers story, it's obvious that many of these children's own grandparents and even fathers can't stand being around them. And then the mothers wonder why the children of their "punitive" (i.e. spanking) friends are so much better behaved. Maybe Zero Population Growth should put a link to Gentle Christian Mothers to advance their cause...

[Sara]

Spanking is hitting. It is illegal for an adult authority figure to spank another "un-ruly" adult. Hitting adults= illegal. adults= people. children= people. therefore: Hitting children= should be illegal. The thing is, whether spanking is effective or not is irrevalent. If for example, a man spanks his wife for being dis-respectful to him, adults won't accept the man's defense that his wife is behaving now so it's okay to spank her when she misbehaves again. spanking should be illegal whether or not it works. Also, it is strange that the mentality here is that no spanking= no discipline.