Spare the rod and spoil the child?

Funny that Mollie should do a post about this, because I wrote one up about four months ago, no, longer.  Way before the babes.  I never got around to posting it then.  Not sure why not? Just ran out of time I think.

What’s even funnier is how my feelings have changed now that the babes are born.  Here is the post with a few changes to reflect current situation.

I realize having this conversation right now might be a bit premature.  I don’t intend spanking my children until they are at least 4, 5 months old.  For now I am just docking their pocket money and sending them to bed without dinner.

What do you do / think about discipline? 

Do you think there is nothing wrong with a (light) smack on the bum?  Or would you consider that child abuse and totally abhorrent?

Does time out work?  Or is even that too extreme for you?

I know our times were different way back then, but today the pendulum seems to have swung to the other extreme where children are basically ‘in charge’ and seem to do exactly what they want to do. 

Growing up we didn’t get lots of hidings, but we got quite a few smacks on the bum (never with any thing else but the hand).  To be honest, I think we damn well deserved them, even though I know it pained my parents greatly to do so.  We also knew exactly where the line was drawn, what our boundaries were.  We were fairly well behaved, balanced children.  And we didn’t turn out too badly?  Well except brother Paul who likes to box.  But we wont mention the war.

Today there appears to be a big swing towards, um, how do I put this, almost a lack of discipline.  Discipline seems to have become Not The Done Thing.  Instead you have to talk about feelings and stuff?

I don’t know.  I don’t believe in beating your child, at all.  I am firmly against any thing that might be construed as child abuse.  But….  (some of) today’s children do seem to lack any form of discipline at all.  In fact some kids seem downright wild.  There has been several times when Marko and I have been out and there has been a child that is being particularly brattish and disrespectful, not just normal naughty, (with the parents either ignoring the child or looking on bemusedly) and we just look at each other and raise our eyebrows.  And my hand itches, I want to take that child firmly by the arm and explain in clipped sentences exactly what is allowed or not.  I know all kids are naughty and test the boundaries occasionally, which is all part of the normal growing up process, but there is a difference between being normal naughty and being a downright brat.  (See, horrible childfree trawlers from That Site, even a “whining infertile breeder” like myself agrees that some children do behave badly. No, wait, I was called “Whiny, infertile South African twit”)

Not sure the approach of “Now Tommy, we don’t hit our little brothers over the head with a lead pipe, bashing open their skulls, that’s not very nice.  How does that make you feel” is working.  I think I would be tempted with a short sharp tap on the bum and getting sent to your room for time out.  Although never in anger, I am totally against parents who scream and shout at their child and hit in anger.  I hate seeing parents scream and shout loudly at their kids in public as well.  They should use my mother’s example of fingers firmly gripping the child’s upper arm (v firmly) with “if you don’t stop that now I am going to give you such a hiding when we get home” said softly through clenched teeth.  We never got the hiding but it was enough to make us stop doing what we were doing. 

I do not want to have ill disciplined, badly behaved brattish child.  However I don’t want a nervous, introverted child.  I just want a confident, well-behaved respectful child.  But I believe the adult is in charge, not the child.  Some of the children today seem to run the show in their families.

Do I think I will spank my child?  I don’t know.  We were given very light spanks as children and we were totally fine with that.  I think we were more upset about having my parents being upset or disappointed in us than getting a hiding.  At this stage I can’t imagine spanking my children, it goes against every protective loving feeling I have, but my sister assures me there will come a time when I will want to give them a firm sharp slap on the bum (and sometimes a firm kick up the ass, oh no, that’s reserved to give to the husband I think).  Will I be a spanker?  Not sure, but I know I am not into this pussy footing around and talking about feelings shit.

BUT…. How should Rose discipline my kids?  I don’t think I want her giving them a smack but she needs to be able to discipline my kids somehow?

What do you think?  Of course you have to do what is right for your own family, I am just interest to know what your thoughts are on the topic of discipline? 

Comments

[Egg Donor]

Tertia - I totally agree with you. I got the arm grabbing when I was a kid, and it was exceptionally effective. We occasionally got more severe beatings ("the belt" we called it), and that just sucked. It made us fearful and not well behaved. However, there were plenty of times we got the light smacking and we deserved it.

I see kids when we go out and I am SHOCKED at what they get away with. Breaking things in stores, screeching in restaurants, throwing food (and not little kids - BIG kids who definitely know better). I never would have been allowed to get away with that as a kid. I think it is exceptionally important that children are disciplined in these situations, and if that requires a firm grasp on the arm or a light smack, I don't see a problem with that. The point isn't to *hurt* the child, but to let them know that they have crossed a well-defined boundary.

Your thoughts seem exactly on the mark for me. You always have struck me as a logical, loving mom, interested in what's best for her kids socially and emotionally. I'm sure you're approach will lead them to healthy, well-adjusted lives. :)

[Kateri]

It's interesting that you post this now, because I'm reading a book called Unconditional Parenting that is basically about how you discipline in a way that's consistent with your values.

I believe what you refer to as "no discipline" is generally called "gentle discipline" by those who practice it. Gentle discipline, when you read about it, sounds great in theory, but in practice I've seen it go toward raising a child without limits at all. Many people seem to get confused when it comes to setting limits while remaining respectful to feelings, ect. I think people also tone down their emotions too much, like that lead pipe exaple of yours above. I try let myself react as naturally as possible without blowing my stack, so my daughter knows the true consequences of her actions. It's a hard balance to strike, but it's a worthy goal, in my opinion. I was routinely spanked, nothing that would be considered abusive. I hope I never spank my kids. I think there are better ways to teach a child how to act toward others.

My girl is never hit or spanked, but she's well behaved anyway (usually :D). She understands that the world has rules and she doesn't have to like them, but she follows them. I'm crossing my fingers that this good result continues ;)

[tess]

the worst is when a kid is being a complete arse and the parent says,
ohhhh, did you do that because mummy said something that made your heart hurt?

GIVE ME A BREAK.

with sebastian we revoke privileges. this is quite effective. if he is being anti-social (ie: hitting) i tell him since he is not being nice to the other kids, i have to take him away from that situation. so, it is a time out or go inside for the afternoon.

or if he is refusing to eat dinner or whatever, then we begin revoking privileges not entirely associated with the event, but bonuses, so to speak. ie: not listening to mummy, not allowed to help daddy wash the car.

this i find quite effective.

i have smacked him on the tushie, and never as a "last resort". usually for something he does that could hurt him, ie: running across a street not holding my hand. i can't think of an exact example right now.

here is a great piece of advice about disciplining and time outs....from my good friend who has twins.

NEVER discipline your child in a way that makes you more upset.

ie: don't give them the ultamatum, IF you do that one more time we are leaving the park, if this is the first sunny day you've had in weeks and are desperate to be at the park. if it took you 45 minutes to pack up and get there. instead, give them a punishment like having to sit in the car for 10 minutes. for them, it is still a punishment. does that make sense?

i went to a parenting seminar and we learned all about letting your child CHOOSE from an early age. if you are interested in that, let me know.xo tess

[MelG-F]

OK, I have spanked my child (almost 3) once. She was in the bathtub, she wouldn't pick up her toys after being asked to do so about 10 times, and I smacked her on the bum. She cried, I cried, it was awful.

Last night, she was being a bit bratty -- playing keep away with my water bottle. I grabbed her arm and went into Bitch Voice 'GIVE ME THAT BOTTLE NOW!" Again, she cried, I cried, it was awful.

I've decided I don't believe in spanking or grabbing. In my personal experience, I have only resorted to this when I'm at my wit's end and angry. It's always been about MY anger, not my daughter's action. Also, I would not have done these things to a stranger, to my husband or to my dog. How can I justify doing them to the most vulnerable person around me?

We use time-outs with fairly good results -- I see a lot of the way we discipline Emma in "Supernanny." Growing up, I don't remember getting spanked, but i remember the threat of the "belt" or a spanking. That's just not an atmosphere I want to raise my daughter in.

[Nicole]

Funny you should post this today. I was just discussing this topic with a friend of mine in the context of the book 'Five Love Languages'. The premise of the book is that most everyone has a primary Love Language (Acts of Service, Words of Affirmation, Quality Time, Gifts, and Physical Touch) that we use to express our love and that we understand when someone expresses their love to us. You run into problems when we try to communicate love (to a partner, friend, child) in a language that they don't speak, e.g. a hubby might tell his wife she's beautiful, wonderful, g&d until the cows come home, but if words of affirmation aren't her love language, she might not feel loved. Where this comes into play with discipline is that when you discipline you don't want your child to get the message that you no longer love him/her b/c of what they've done wrong. So I think we have to be careful when choosing how to discipline and realize that all forms of discipline don't work well on every child. For example, sending a child who's primary love language is quality time into a time-out alone could get internalized as "I've been so bad I no longer deserve to be loved." Not to say that this is how it always works, or that you can tell a child's love language at an early age, but I do have one child who I have to reserve time-outs as the most severe form of punishment available.

That said, I strongly feel that limits are absolutely necessary for children and I think one of the greatest mistakes I make as a parent is not physically stepping in often enough. It is kind of lazy parenting. You know, you can tell a child to stop doing something a zillion times, but there comes a point where you actually have to physically stop them and may need to remove them from the situation entirely. And as for corrective action, I am in no way opposed to the occassional spank on the rear or sending someone to their room. If the incidence involves a toy, I frequently will put the toy in a time-out. But I think that ideally all discipline needs to be done without anger and in love - that children need to know "I love you, but this behavior is unacceptable." Furthermore, when they're old enough, I think they need to know the *why* the behavior is unacceptable so that they can correct future behavior flare ups.

That might all sound a little too touchy feely, but so far it's been working for us.

[wessel]

Couldn't agree with you more, Tertia. Permissive parenting is "in," and people who are actually firm with their children and require obedience are viewed as archaic at best and ignorant trash at worst. But no matter--I'm not running a popularity contest, I just want to do the right thing by my child. That means that I am in charge, and the child is not running the show and exhibiting to the world the worst that natural human behavior has to offer.

I have no qualms about spanking a child. Much too much has been made of it. If the anti-spankers were raising good, respectful children, maybe I'd become a convert. But NONE of my friends who have liberal parenting views have kids that I want to be around. As they say, you can judge the tree by its fruit, and in this case, you can judge the parenting theories by the children they produce.

I know what you mean about parents looking on "bemused" when their child is being horrid. My personal favorite is "Please stop . ." (whatever the horrid behavior is, for example, throwing water on the guests or kicking the passenger in front of you on the airplane. Excuse the hell out of me, but don't say "please" when you are uttering a command!!!! "Please bring mommie a napkin" is appropriate, but if the child is setting the house on fire, something a little more urgent and firm seems to be required, don't you think?

I was once reading Penelope Leach, because she came highly recommended (blech, blech) and she actually gave an example of a child trying to do something positively awful AND dangerous, and her recommendation? Ignore him. Yeah, right. That is SUCH a misnomer, that ignoring bad behavior will make it go away. NOT. It often escalates the bad behavior as the child is desperately trying to get you to set some limits. But this is what the "experts" are recommending and it is so irresponsible.

One child rearing expert I read that I really respected was Fitzhugh Dodson (can't remember the title of his book). Also liked Dr. James Dobson's books Hide and Seek and Dare to Discipline. (He is Christian though, so that will bother some people. I just overlooked it since it was a non issue for me).

Anyway Tertia, good for you for thinking of how to be a GOOD parent. Love is not just cuddles and sweetness--love is giving your child what they need to survive in the world and be happy and productive. If you create little selfish, obnoxious narcissists that everyone hates, how can you say you have fulfilled your obligation to love your child?

[dawna]

I have a bit of trouble with this one. I feel that an occasional spanking is necessary. I also believe that if you have your limits set in place way before they even begin testing them, then you have a better shot at training them properly without having to spank them very often at all. The most fun is finding what works best per child. Some kids only understand when they push you to a spanking(those hard headed determined ones) others you only have to raise your voice a bit and they collapse in tears. Before every spanking I ever recieved, dad said "this hurts me more than it hurts you" I never got it. I do now. You do feel bad about it, but they really do get over it within minutes, and forgive you completely, and remember the lesson intended. That's what's really important, the learning. If spanking them results in nothing, then there isn't a point in doing so and it's time to find a different punishment. So really, I don't agree or disagree with spanking, it really all boils down to the specific child. But I promise, there will come a day that you really really just wanna beat that kid..
I think I more often go with a hand smack or a tap on the mouth. Gotta teach them to not argue and watch their mouths and respect adults. Reminding a two year old with words can be absolutely useless sometimes, and you have to use a teeeny bit of pain to make your point(the oven is hot, it will hurt you- that doesn't work, associate the sting of a handsmack with the heat of the oven, they won't wanna touch something that causes them pain) you will find your way, just don't let them take over the household and become the boss. If you start early(very early, like a year) with teaching them right from wrong and how to behave, you won't have near the problems. A lot of people go with the "aww isn't he cute when he says asshole!" and in the end teaches them that you think their wrongdoings are cute. That's really where it all begins. So think about that instead of "will i spank them when they are 5??" Sorry for all the rambling and assvice.

[Jody]

Tertia, I don't think the opposite of spanking is no discipline. I wouldn't lump all the spankers with the abusers (and I've seen plenty--my parents' long-ago best friends KICKED their nine-year old son for talking back to his dad as the child lay in the dirt of a parking lot the summer that I was eight), and I wouldn't lump the gentle discipliners with the no-discipliners, either. Of course, I'm a huge advocate of gentle discipline, or at least respectful discipline (I'm not especially gentle when I'm separating my hellcats these days), so I might be suspect.

Oh, by the way, hellcat seems to be typical of many four-year olds, regardless of disciplinary technique. One advantage to being active on the Triplet Connection is that the place is alive with strict disciplinarians and believers-in-spankings, and they're trying to teach the same lessons I am. Our tactics differ, but our lack of headway remains the same.

You might have already guessed this about me, but I don't think discipline involves a lot of hashing over feelings, either. You set rules, you enforce the rules with a minimum of fuss, and you get on with your day. So, for example, if you're at the park with your 2-year olds, you don't crouch in the sand pleading with them to walk with you back to the car because Gramma really, really has to use the bathroom. (I actually witnessed this fiasco once.) You tell your kids you've they've got 5 more minutes, then 1 more minute, say goodbye to the swings and the slide, and now we get in the wagon. Then you lift any stragglers into the wagon and off you go. Fussing? Perfectly acceptable to say in an even-keeled tone, after everyone's in the wagon and you're moving, "it's hard to leave when you're having a good time." Not so smart to start in with the elaborate sympathy. Certainly not smart at all to pretend that the child has a vote on the departure time. You're the mom, you're in charge.

I don't have time to talk about rationales or feelings when I'm enforcing rules. "We don't do that" is perfectly acceptable when you're stopping one child from pinching the other. "This toy needs a timeout" works better than "this child needs a timeout" when your kids are anything less than three years old, in my limited experience. Teaching respect, cooperation, taking turns, and sharing all require infinite patience, and don't seem to be helped at all by spanking. At least, not for us.

I was scared witless of my mother's wrath. I sure as hell obeyed her, but it wasn't because of anything other than pervasive fear. I didn't endure so much on the IF journey just to end up living with kids who fear me. I just cannot parent the way my mom did.

Perhaps because of my childhood, I have rage issues. Serious, serious problems with anger. So hitting is absolutely NOT something I can allow to become part of my parenting toolbox. I have smacked bottoms a few times, and it has (a) never done the teaching I needed to do; and (b) never felt like anything but total shit. I've only smacked a bottom (or grabbed an arm very hard and hissed, by the way--something I've done more than spanking) when I'm so beside myself with anger that no better alternative for handling my child came to mind. I can't imagine hitting or grabbing when I'm not angry, because when I'm not angry, I'm thinking coherently and a better approach always suggests itself. And don't the spanking advocates say never to spank unless calm?

I'm totally mystified as to how that would work for me. "Now I'm calm, I'm remembering the three different approaches I've read about in books or learned from friends to deal with this, and hmmm, I think I'll chose the spanking." It just doesn't make sense to me. In my context. With my kids.

I've confessed my addiction to books, so I'll just throw out two, by the same authors, that are a teeny-tiny bit utopian in their attitudes but still amazing: "How to Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen so Kids Will Talk" and "Siblings Without Rivalry." I started with "Siblings" and only read "How to Talk" because it was available on the LLL borrowing table.

I also love "Raising Your Spirited Child," "I Love You Rituals," and "Playful Parenting," because they're all good reminders to me that many discipline problems arise from basic-care issues (kids trying desparately to get attention, being bored, being overtired, being hungry) and are, therefore, preventable. In fact, I'm typically the most consumed with rage when I know in my heart that the meltdowns and the defiance and the bickering could have been prevented by better self-discipline on my part.

There's also the growing realization that older-kid misbehavior just naturally arises as kids grow, test boundaries, and explore their own power. And it's frustrating as hell, but nothing seems capable of deterring them from that. It's like a deep-seated need, an inevitable part of growing up, to test boundaries, and all you can do as a parent is manage it, not prevent it. It's bloody exhausting to count three for the three hundredth time in a day, or remind people to talk quietly twenty-five times in 15 minutes at the dinner table. I'm secretly tempted just to throw principle to the wind and start to instill a little fear of God and Mommy at that point. Stop yelling or I'll smack you right here!

But I think the kids would still go right on testing their limits. Only now they would be testing limits and also living with a certain amount of fear of me. So what would I have accomplished?

Calder has never once spanked anyone but his angry voice scares the shit out of the kids. He gets mean and contemptous, and the last time anyone checked, neither of those things were good either, discipline-wise. There are a lot of ways to leave yourself room for improvement, I guess.

In the end, I think it all comes down to what works. Spanking has never worked at ALL in our family, for me especially but also for the kids (they smack each other more after an episode of mommy butt-smacking has occurred) and other forms of discipline have mostly worked quite well. In that irritating way that kids have, I hear from teachers and babysitters and grandparents that our kids are perfect angels of decorum and good behavior whenever Calder and I aren't around. I'm not embarrassing myself with the faux-sympathy or the endless pleading, either. So I'm content with my choices. I'm sure you will be too, whatever works out best for you and Marko Kate and Adam.

[cc]

scene: christmas mass at a small coastal town in australia at about 8pm on christmas eve

parents: aged in late thirties, professionals of some kind

child: a boy of about two, who is screaming, running around, throwing stuff, hitting random strangers.

mother goes: 'ask him what's wrong.'

father goes: 'are you tired, thomas? do you want to go to bed? are you upset, thomas?'

i was shocked, i thought, how can this obviously intelligent, successful man expect this poor tiny kid to TELL him when he's been kept up too late. what does he want, a signed faxed memo that says 'dad, i am overtired and overexcited, please put me to bed now'?

[meg]

There are some parents out there who want to be "friends" with their kids...they get upset and worry that their kids won't "like" them. They just want their kids to be "happy". What is that all about? We are the boss of the family...friends are equal and parents are not equal to their kids! Our parents did not worry about this...often I did not like them much when they wouldn't let me do something I wanted to do...but that was their job! I should NOT have been going to a club with my girlfriends in the city at the age of 15! I wasn't happy and I got over it. My mom was my mom, and though we were most often friendly, we were not friends!

We also had a little bit of healthy fear of them. We didn't walk around IN fear or anything, but we knew that they were the boss. In fact, I remember telling my mom that I was going to go to that club anyway, and that she couldn't stop me and she said "You're right. I can't. But eventually you will come back home and then you will have to decide if it was worth it. Things won't be the same." I was scared enough of my parents not to go. Not so scared of getting spanked at 15, but scared of disapointing them that much.

The thing is, this all starts now when they are young (mine are a pre-schooler and a baby). I'll give the 9 week old a break, but the idea that my three year old has to like me all the time or be happy all the time is crazy. It is my JOB to do things that he is not going to like because I am the boss. "No, you can't eat a cookie 1/2 and hour before dinner. No, you can't go run around the parking lot and play chase". When he does it anyway than I have to take it to the next level so that the next time he doen't do it. (Sent to your room until dinner since you can't be trusted in the kitchen? A light smack on the butt for doing something as dangerous as run around in a parking lot? Absolutely)

This is not to say that you don't love them or respect them, of course you do, and they know it. I knew my mom loved me because she would not let me go to that club, and my son knows I love him because I won't let him play in a parking lot. He knows I respect him because as he stands by the car, like he is supposed to, even when I walk around to put his brother's car seat in on the other side, and a friend's child runs around quite dangerously in my opinion, the friend says "Wow, he really stays put when you tell him too...I wish mine would do that" and I can say "Yes, I can trust him to listen". He's proud of himself when he makes me proud of him.

I think it depends on the kid, the situation, and the level of anger/frustration being felt by the parent at the time. I have sent my three year old to his room for a time out because I felt that maybe I was a little too angry to deal with the situation rationally...I took some time to calm down and then dealt with it. Spankings shouldn't be a regular part of your discipline routine...if they are then they aren't working.

This parking lot thing may sound weird but it actually happened. Who lets their pre-schooler run around a paking lot, I ask you? Sheesh.

[Kathleen]

No one hits anyone in our house. That means we don't spank and it was not tolerated when our son tried to hit us, other kids or the dogs. We don't scream at each other either.

My parents never hit me (including spanking), but they treated me with respect and, this is key, expected it in return. My parents were also very consistant. I think a lot of discipline problems stem from parents trying to buy peace at any price and then becoming upset when the price gets too high.

Logical consequences worked for my parents and they have worked fine for me. People often compliment me on how polite my son is and he is a very kind person.

I think parenting without spanking is harder than knowing you've got that to fall back on. It requires a good working knowledge of what is age appropriate behavior and what are realistic expectations. But I also think it's worth it.

[RainbowW]

my kids are sensitive enough that a sharp "NO!" sends them into an emotional tailspin. both my sons throw themselves on the floor and cry; my daughter runs to the nearest wall, buries her face and cries.

we reserve spankings -- one wallop on the bottom, hand only, diaper on -- for situations that are life- or health-threatening. for example, running in the street, throwing things (our current bugaboo; they don't have enough control to not hit you in the face, a danger to the eyes), hitting, all get you a whack. but you do get warned first.

the other thing that gets their attention without hitting them is picking them up by their shirt-fronts. this only works when your kids start to learn relative sizes -- you're big and they're not. all you do is life them up by the front of their shirts, let their little legs dangle, and give them a talking-to. it helps if you have the upper-body strength to hold them out at arm's length with one hand, but doing it with two hands works well too.

[Annie]

Assvice Alert - I don't have kids. I speak entirely about what I remember of my own childhood and how my parents raised me and from a very short stint as a pre-school teacher.

I would never, under any circumstances hit a child. Mine or anyone elses. We were rarely disciplined. Our parents were fun and kind and generally I remember wanting to make them happy and proud of me so I generally did what I knew they wanted me to do. Notice I said generally. I was a child, not an angel after all. Becuase we weren't disciplined too often when we were it was a BIG deal. Punishment was reserved for occasions that really warrented it (picking all of our neighbors lovely daffadils, riding our bike off the sidewalk and into a busy road, being cruel to a younger neighbor are a few I remember) Even something like loosing TV privilages or being sent to bed early felt shameful and instantly stopped us in our tracks. I'm not saying that would work with every kid but it worked with us.

One of the worst things I see with parents and kids these days is the insane amound of NO's being shouted. There seems to be a lack of graduated punishment and too many arbitrary rules that are only intermittently enforced. Just last week I was in Barnes and Nobel (the epicenter of bad kid behaviour in my neighborhood it seems) and there was a mother shouting at her child for tying and untying his shoe while she was reading a story to him. she was tapping his hand and shouted "No! Stop it!" over and over. A few minutes later her response was exactly the same when he yanked his sister's hair and made her cry. I don't understand why tying and untying his shoe was something that warented the same response as hurting his sister. I'm not sure why it warrented any response at all really. He was about 4 so fidgiting seems like a pretty normal behaviour. The kid was bored and getting frustrated but as his behaviour escalated her response didn't. If a constant stream of no is all a child hears it looses its effect entirely.

We didn't have a lot of rules growing up but the ones we had were inforced without fail. We could predict our parents response with 100 percent accuracy. If we insisted on wearing a t-shirt and no coat ouside in the rain or sleeping with the light on our parents pretty much let us do what we wanted. But if we were disrespectful to an adult, hit someone, cursed at our parents or another adult etc. we knew with 100 percent certainty that there would be consequences and that they would not be fun. Consequences were generally lost privilages or possesions, bedtime right after dinner, sitting in the corner, guilt and shame, physical labor (one fall I remember having to rake all of my neighbors leaves for free but I don't remember what my offense was.

The other thing that my parents always did was give us a lot of appropriate ways to get our energy out. That is something I think a lot of kids who spend far too much time indoors these days lack. A tired kid = happy parents. We ran around a lot. We rode our bikes everywhere. We climbed trees. We built snow forts. We spun around in circles till we fell down. We collapsed in bed at 8 o'clock because we were exhausted, sweaty and worn out.

This was all a long winded way of saying that in my opinion being consistant with whatever method you choose is the key to everything. If you make rules they must be inforced 100 percent of the time. But don't overload your kids with rules that you can not or will not enforce.

[MollieBee]

I just make my daughter stand on her head till she feels like behaving again.

Seriously, Stinker is a butthead. One time I yelled "do you want a spanking?!" and she said: "yes!". I almost died laughing.

[eve]

Greetings here from a well-adjusted, and spanked, child. I am now 27 years old and have no negative repercussions from receiving spankings.

This is not to say you should spank your kids, and not to say you shouldn't. Just to say, here's one example of a person who had no negative repercussions from it.

Did my parents ever beat me? No, never. No marks, no items ever used (ie I was never hit with a belt or a wooden spoon or the like.) Were there ever any sessions where my parent was hysterically angry or crying or screaming? Not that I can remember, which leads me to believe that they never put a hand on me as a result of their own rage, but rather used the spankings as a means to get my attention toward some important disciplinary lesson.

I guess however my parents did it was OK if we judge by the end result - a law-abiding, functioning, healthy adult! However, I don't know what their secret was.

My $.02: If it makes you feel bad, it's probably not the right thing to do in that instance.

There will come a time when a child is old enough to do serious harm to themselves, but not old enough to understand/appreciate the situation with words. Sometimes a swat/spank/hiding might reinforce the lesson/deter them from the problem long enough to keep them out of danger.

Anything used too often will usually lose its power - therefore I'm sure the more things merit a spanking, the less effective the spanking will be as a deterrent. Also, the older a kid gets, the less you will be able to use physical force on him, so if spanking is the only means of discipline, it will lose its effectiveness.

Should other people discipline your kids? Probably, if it's appropriate (as it would be in a school or caregiver situation) but should other people ever lay a hand on your children - probably not. Only because you can never be "inside" their hand and that's an awful big risk to take. IMHO, it also sends a message that their bodies are not sacred, since you've given someone else the power to put their hands on it.

And finally, I don't think a parent should ever rage at their child. Whether it's yelling, screaming, hitting, or whatever, the child absorbs the rage a lot more than they do the words or the touching. I think we want our children to absorb our loving discipline, and not our rage at them.

[sophie]

tertia, you are sooo right! i am the mother of two girls (9 & 7) and i am also a cashier at a busy grocery store. the number of parents i see trying to bribe their little brats into behaving for two minutes with the purchase of a chocolate or candy (and yes, i know, having the candy right there sucks, but i am just the cashier, not the store owner or the merchandising designer!)
whenever i am out with my two, or when they go to other people's homes, i hear about how beautifully behaved they are. this is because i WORK at it, all the time. i happen to believe that a tap on the butt is not the end of the world, but i have never needed to spank my younger daughter, as she is the type of kid that needs a lot of parental approval. my older one, on the other hand, needs very firm rules and guidance, and has needed the occasional spank. the important part, imho, is consistency -- my kids know not to whine, because i will never respond. i will never buy the candy at the checkout. if they misbehave in public, i will remove them from the situation each and every single time. and i never make threats that i will not follow through on. by the same token, i also keep each and every promise i make to my girls. (i just think long and hard before promising anything!)
i also second previous posters about an overabundance of rules -- if you keep it simple, and don't sweat the small stuff, when something serious happens, your kid will know that you are for real.
just one caveat on the "tired kid= happy parents" thing. my older daughter is of the variety that gets more hyper the more tired she is. one christmas, i swear she was vibrating three feet off the floor, she was so exhausted. so i do my level best to make sure that she is not overly tired before bed, or anytime that she needs to be on her best behaviour. she is not capable of slowing herself down enough to fall into bed; she would just keep going. (and she has been like this since birth -- combine that with colic, and you can just imagine how tired i was!)
love to the whole g & d family.

[Alana]

I am all for an arm grabbing and a smack to the butt when they're little and need it. In case of a full blown tantrum in public I picked them up and took them home. I have yet to see "a good talking to" to a disobediant toddler be really affective. Maybe there are exceptions, I just haven't seen. Because I set clear boundries fro my children to follow they knew what to expect and none of the 3 have ever gotten a swat past the age of 3 or 4. Plus none of my 3 got anymore than 5 spankings total in their life. When my littlest one was 2 to 3 she used to throw fits and I'd tell her she can throw it in her room. When she was done and felt like talking she could come out. That worked very well for her. I know all three of my kids were different but They are now 13,11 and 5 and seem pretty well adjusted.

[Mollie]

Just be yourself. (i.e. asshole)

The kids will do the rest.

[Angela]

I agree with a light smack on the bum and then an explanation as to why. I love my 8 month old son very much but I have no qualms about instilling discipline into him. Also, I don't want to be outsmarted by my own offspring!

I was rarely smacked as a child, but I do recall my parents yelling at me and that is something I want to avoid with Oliver. My husband was smacked as a child. His mother used to make him wait until his dad came home and dad had to administer the beating with a belt. Lucky for my husband that his dad was a big softie and he would hit the bed instead and tell Brenton to make out he's crying so his mum would think it's real.

[Tanya]

Found myself explaining to Neale and David the difference between a democracy and an authoritarian regime. As it turns out they do not live in a democracy - yet.

Seriously, tried the gentle smack but it made me feel worse. I now reserve it for extreme cases of endangering either yourself or your brother where an instant reaction is needed. Time out works pretty well (not much to do in the bathroom if your Mother removes the toilet paper and tightens the taps). Also this is something I am extremely comfortable with Lavender using when I am not home. She does it better than I do and has a range of time limits worked out depending on how severe the crime was she is also really good at explaining to them why she is doing this. I insist that they respect her and listen to her because when I am not there she is the supreme authority.

It is not always easy though. I too do not want to raise hooligans - what may be cute when you are 2 is not so cute when you are 8, 16, 32 etc. sometimes however you just have to laugh. Told David on Sunday that the bathroom had his name written all over it, he looks at me and cheeky as can be says "where Mommy where?"

[JENNY]

RainbowW I sincerely hope you are joking. I've never heard of anything more revolting.

"the other thing that gets their attention without hitting them is picking them up by their shirt-fronts. this only works when your kids start to learn relative sizes -- you're big and they're not. all you do is life them up by the front of their shirts, let their little legs dangle, and give them a talking-to. it helps if you have the upper-body strength to hold them out at arm's length with one hand, but doing it with two hands works well too

[Rhonda]

Gee, Tertia, you do like to get people responding, don't you?

This is what works for us, so far:

We do not spank our daughter. But we discipline and set serious limits... and we punish when necessary. We use time-outs, and we take away privileges (bedtime stories, television, dessert). Respect/manners/cooperation are top priorities, and if we are in public that especially includes not bothering others around us. (I am determined that no one will ever have reason to rant about us on a childfree forum!)

Fortunately my daughter is sensitive enough that "This is the second time I have asked you not to (X specific behaviour). If you do it again you lose one bedtime story tonight" is an effective threat. (Sometimes it prompts a "No, no, NO!" meltdown, but we don't give in to meltdowns (though if we are in public we will take her out of the room/restaurant/store until she calms down (or else we just go home), because otherwise it is not fair to others.)

But that's only half the story. I also tell her exactly what she is doing right and praise her for it (and sometimes reward after the fact with extra bedtime stories, but never bribe). It also means that if I think she will be too hungry to behave, I feed her first. If she will be too bored, we bring quiet toys or books. And if she will be too tired, we simply don't go (or get a sitter).

[Chrissy]

Tertia, not sure if anyone has replied from a nannies point of view, so i'll give it a shot :)

I basically take my disciplining from the parents, I dont hit/spank the kiddies, because they dont. The only time I have ever hit them is when they were going through the hitting phase, telling them no didnt work, time out didnt work, so I told them if they hit me I would hit them back and of course they had to try it on and both of them hit me, so i slapped them on the hand - well you should have heard the tears - you probably could have all the way over there - but they have never hit me again.

Ordinarily I do time out in the bedroom and that seems to work, if they are throwing their toys they get 1 chance and after that the toys go in the rubbish bin (actually they go in the hallway cupboard but they dont know that).

Other than that I just set firm boundaries, and I am deifinitely in charge. I find taking away treats is a great dare I say it blackmailing tool, if Cam (the 4yr old) is playing up I tell him he wont get to go to kindy (like thats ever going to happen)!! If they cant/dont or wont play nicely together then they get to play in seperate rooms.

Also now that they are getting a bit older I expect them to do more, they have to put all of their rubbish in the bin, put their shoes and jackets away, put their dirty clothes in the washing basket after the bath, put their dirty plates on the bench after dinner, I also expect them to say please and thank you, and I am trying to teach them not to interrupt when someone else is taking.

Now that i've written a book :)

also i've come to the conclusion that an ibex is definitely something julie made up :)

[aggie]

Every child responds differently to different discipline. What works for one child may not work for another. You just might find Kate responds to a firm NO! While Adam might need a pop on the butt or it may be the other way. What ever you decide, remember that is your decision and no one should make you feel bad about it. There are many people in you life that will question it...not just those here in the internet. We had a school teacher decide it was her job to dictate how we disciplined our daughter (my step daughter actually). I guess I should say we have a no hitting rule in the house. Not because we don’t think a pop on the butt isn’t acceptable, but because my step daughters were physically abused by their mother. When my now 14 year old was about 11 this teacher became a major thorn in our sides. She is a kid with behavioral problems and mental health issues and she was in a special program at her school. Daily phone calls. Notes home. “You can’t take away her stuffed animals as punishment” “you need to use a star chart” “make her sit on the stairs for a time out” “you can’t give her a time out, you need to take away her stuffed animals”. It was crazy! We fought the school system to have her removed from this ladies class. No one would help us. This teacher was positive her form of discipline was the answer, that we as parents had no idea what we were doing. We sat back and said fine. We’ll play the game. Then my daughter took a knife to school. A butter knife that was scooped into her book bag while I was setting the table and getting her to clean up her homework. Homework that was being done on the kitchen table because her teacher’s recent rule was “all homework should be done on the kitchen table”. The butter knife was found and immediately turned in, no one was threatened, no other student was shown the knife. She was suspended and removed from the school (good ol’ zero tolerance). Best thing to ever happen. It taught us a very important lesson. Do what you think is right for your child and everyone else can go to hell.

[VHMPrincess]

Our son is so well behaved...but every now and then he likes to test us and make sure we're paying attention.

For us, if in a restuarant, having to go sit in the car with mommy while daddy finishes dinner is the worst punishment ever(daddy is the favorite)...of course this sucked for me and hubby the ONE TIME we had to do it, but the point was made and son knows that when I say "Stop it or we're going into the car", I mean it.

He doesn't misbehave at other people's houses or in stores. I believe there are a couple of key reasons for this...
1. we don't let him misbehave at home. Not behaving or doing things he's not supposed to automatically leads to the removal of the toy of my choice, no questions, always.
2. when we do have to administer a talking to, it is done at his eye level, face to face, stern voice, clipped sentences so that he knows we are not happy with something. I've seen parents saying from across the room "Johnny, please stop that" as they carry on whatever conversation they were having w/company..that doesn't work. You need to get up and get their attention.

BUT - what works for some, doesn't for others. My best friend has a son that she doesn't need to even be as harsh as we are...simply saying "don't do that" in a very nice voice to him will get him to stop...

I think the key is start w/an approach and see if it works. Keep modifying until you find what works for your kids....